With just under 4k votes casts for this award, it shows how little read this website is by the majority of MMO players in the genre. I mean hell, 4k people is almost what DAoC has active on a daily basis. So I take these awards with a grain of salt, because these rewards don't represent what the majority think or what professionals think like most serious awards. ... except that MoM is getting high praise from "professionals" as well; assuming that by "professionals", you mean major gaming sites and publications. Just look around at the reviews from different gaming sites and magazines. They all give it high scores.
That, and polls never represent an entire population, but a sampling of it. The poll is no different here. And, given the praise it's getting in the press, I think the results of this poll are at least consistent.
So yes, to say the results of this poll are way off would be an understatement.
Why is that odd to you?
Have you ever read book, music or movie reviews, and then seen how different or divided reader/listener/watcher opinions can be by comparison? The same holds true for games. It's not exactly some alien concept.... well I guess to you it is given your response.
Find me a critic or reviewer, anywhere, for anything, whose opinions/reviews are never disagreed with. You can't, because no such person exists
Let's try something...
We'll call it a mind opening exercise.
Okay... if you could, just for a moment... Step out of your own head and pretend that there are millions of people in this world with minds of their own. Now pretend that those people are all capable of forming their own opinions and, even better, offering them when asked.
Still with me? Okay good...
This is where it's gonna get tough for you...
Envision thousands of those people whose opinions, likes and dislikes don't necessarily match your own, or those you agree with.
Take a breath. Told you this would get tough. Accepting that others have different opinions than you and that theirs are just as valid can be difficult to swallow for a hyper-opinionated, closed-minded person. It gets easier with time and, besides, that's what this exercise is for.
Let me know when you're ready to continue.
Ready?
Okay, good..
Now imagine all those people, with minds and views and voices of their own, are invited to cast their votes in a player poll for best expansion for a MMORPG. Imagine that, despite what might seem like the "obvious", "correct" choice to you, they all vote for a different game, and that game wins by a substantial margin. The world doesn't stop turning. The sky doesn't fall. The sun still rises and sets like normal.
Now, take a deep breath, snap out of it, come back to reality and accept that that's exactly what happened here. People were invited to vote for what they felt was the best expansion. They did and LoTRO got the most votes. Don't point at what meta-critic shows, because that doesn't mean anything here. These polls reflect player opinion, not industry reviews.
I'm sure there are plenty who agree with you and didn't choose it. There were simply more in this poll who didn't agree with you.
Why is that so difficult to accept?
Bottom line: The award went to the game that, in your opinion, shouldn't have gotten it. A lot of people disagreed with you. Learn to deal with it, and move on.
Or, continue griping about it.
Whatever gets you through the night.
As an aside, I do find it funny when you start citing reviewers like that. From past experience, I know you'd just as quickly dismiss those same reviews if they didn't support your argument.
The biggest problem with your point of view is that you like to believe that every opinion is valid and well educated, and this is simply not true.
The thing with mmorpg.com award is that every person with a connection to the internet can vote. Now lets stay realistic: How many people here have actually PLAYED and EXPERIENCED all the games listed? If it's more than 10%, I'll be impressed. If you haven't played or experienced all these games and expanstions, how can you make an objective vote?
Short answer: You can't. The result is that this poll is all about fanboyism and bias, not actual product quality.
The reason why I cite critics is that if you look at the games from an objective viewpoints, WotLK clearly comes out on top and it really shows just how little quality has to do with the results.
Short answer: You can't. The result is that this poll is all about fanboyism and bias, not actual product quality.
No shit, it’s a READER CHOICE AWARD. That doesn’t mean that the quality is not there. Because it is, the two are not mutually exclusive.
If you would stop babbling about this BS, and read what others have posted here as to why they voted one way or the other, you would see why LOTRO won.
Also, please note, LOTRO has 14 reviews, WOTLK has 41 to make the average of your Critic score.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Short answer: You can't. The result is that this poll is all about fanboyism and bias, not actual product quality.
No shit, it’s a READER CHOICE AWARD. That doesn’t mean that the quality is not there. Because it is, the two are not mutually exclusive.
If you would stop babbling about this BS, and read what others have posted here as to why they voted one way or the other, you would see why LOTRO won.
Also, please note, LOTRO has 14 reviews, WOTLK has 41 to make the average of your Critic score.
It's undeniable that the quality isn't there because from an objective point of view, WOTLK scores higher than MoM and yet Lotro wins with a landslide victory here.
It doesn't matter what people post here, because I don't believe for a moment that even half of the people who voted here did so with an objective and educated mindset. For that, you need to look no further than yourself.
" they also have 25 man raids, something blizzard has recently decided to mimic"
Blizzard decided to mimic? what? WoW already had a 20 man raid dungeon about 2 years before Lotro was even released.
In my opinion, it is very clear why people have voted for Lotro. Because Blizzard is the big bad bully, and Turbine is this cute little company offering an alternative to WoW.
I think it pretty much goes like this:
Look at the nominations:
- EVE empyrean age
- Mines of Moria
- Seeds of Destruction
- Shadow of Odyssey
- Wrath of the Lich King
The only company with a worse reputation than Blizzard on this forum is SOE, so that leaves out Seeds of Destruction and Shadow of Odyssey. It doesn't matter how good these expansions are, the fact that they are published by SOE means people won't vote for it. Next is EVE: Empyrean Age which quite a lot of people voted for but I think the fact it wasn't a traditional retail expansion kept it from getting votes. WoW players obviously voted for WoW, so that leaves with the biggest group: The people who hate WoW because it's big and mainstream, and since 2nd best is Lotro, it's obvious that's where the votes will go to.
People are far more forgiving to Turbine than they are for Blizzard
"Lotro is not about the endgame, it's about the journey to it!" Unfortunately Lotro's quest are, just like WoW, little more than "Go kill XX" or "Go find XX" with a storyline mission thrown in every now and then to keep the story moving, only difference being that WoW has a lot more content untill you reach the cap level. The endgame in Lotro is nowhere near that of WoW's, so the correct translation of the phrase "It's not about the endgame" would be "The endgame sucks".
People will write entire essays to write what they don't like about WoW's PVP system but when Lotro's monsterplay comes up, it usually goes "It sucks, but it's not the focus of the game" as if that is a valid excuse for it being the way it is.
Also, a game having less reviews is usually in its favor, as the score most of the time goes down as more and more reviews get added.
With just under 4k votes casts for this award, it shows how little read this website is by the majority of MMO players in the genre. I mean hell, 4k people is almost what DAoC has active on a daily basis. So I take these awards with a grain of salt, because these rewards don't represent what the majority think or what professionals think like most serious awards. ... except that MoM is getting high praise from "professionals" as well; assuming that by "professionals", you mean major gaming sites and publications. Just look around at the reviews from different gaming sites and magazines. They all give it high scores.
That, and polls never represent an entire population, but a sampling of it. The poll is no different here. And, given the praise it's getting in the press, I think the results of this poll are at least consistent.
So yes, to say the results of this poll are way off would be an understatement.
The biggest problem with your point of view is that you like to believe that every opinion is valid and well educated, and this is simply not true.
Ahhh yes, the classic GameLoading "logic".
People's opinions aren't valid or well-educated unless they meet your self-serving "standards". Or, in short, if they don't agree with you, they're "wrong".
You haven't changed a bit since the Archlord days; just as arrogant, presumptuous, closed-minded and hyper-opinionated as ever.
So you don't have to keep trying to diagnose my "problem", my point-of-view can be portrayed as such:
People are presented a list of games to choose from. Common-sense would say that they are likely to vote for the game they feel deserves it, for their own reasons. Likewise, they are likely to not vote for a game they don't feel deserves it, again for their own reasons.
Every person who comes here had the opportunity to vote. Everyone who voted in that poll had the same options as everyone else. More people chose LoTRO, so LoTRO won.
See? Simple.
All this "well-educated" and "valid" crap is just more of the same from you; trying to tear apart and invalidate opinions you disagree with using your own self-serving "standards". Just like you did back on the Archlord forums. It's nothing but a red herring. You can't tolerate differing opinions, GL, and you never could.
The thing with mmorpg.com award is that every person with a connection to the internet can vote. Now lets stay realistic: How many people here have actually PLAYED and EXPERIENCED all the games listed? If it's more than 10%, I'll be impressed. If you haven't played or experienced all these games and expanstions, how can you make an objective vote?
Short answer: You can't. The result is that this poll is all about fanboyism and bias, not actual product quality.
Of course it's biased... It's a poll asking players for their personal opinions of which game deserves an award. So naturally, the votes are going to be based on personal bias. What's the problem here?
You're over-complicating a simple situation to suit your own ends (you don't like the results, so you must seek to invalidate them - just like always).
And, once again invoking common-sense, why the hell would someone vote for a game they don't play or at least don't like? The reason why I cite critics is that if you look at the games from an objective viewpoints, WotLK clearly comes out on top and it really shows just how little quality has to do with the results.
Okay... I'm going to type this slowly so you can follow along more easily...
This - is - not - an - impartial - industry - review - based - on - objective - criteria.
This - is - a - subjective - reader/player - poll - based - on - personal - opinion.
They - are - not - the - same - thing.
One - does - not - qualify - nor - disqualify - the - other.
Keep reading that 'til it sinks in.
There is no "criteria" to be met to validate or invalidate people's votes. I know how badly you want to pretend there is because your entire dismissal of the results depends on it... but it's just not there.
You can pretend it matters all day long and give as many arguments as you want. People form opinions based on their own likes and dislikes. It is not your place to come here and "police" those opinions by pondering whose vote is "well-educated" (ie. they agree with you) and whose isn't (ie. they disagree with you).
Once again, you do not decide the criteria, and you cannot assume to know the particulars of every person who voted. So stop presuming to. And, going from your posting history, I would bet $20 that if the game won that *you* felt deserved it, you wouldn't have questioned the validity of the votes at all. Every winning vote would have been well-educated and valid, simply because they agreed with you.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
With just under 4k votes casts for this award, it shows how little read this website is by the majority of MMO players in the genre. I mean hell, 4k people is almost what DAoC has active on a daily basis. So I take these awards with a grain of salt, because these rewards don't represent what the majority think or what professionals think like most serious awards. ... except that MoM is getting high praise from "professionals" as well; assuming that by "professionals", you mean major gaming sites and publications. Just look around at the reviews from different gaming sites and magazines. They all give it high scores.
That, and polls never represent an entire population, but a sampling of it. The poll is no different here. And, given the praise it's getting in the press, I think the results of this poll are at least consistent.
So yes, to say the results of this poll are way off would be an understatement.
The biggest problem with your point of view is that you like to believe that every opinion is valid and well educated, and this is simply not true.
Ahhh yes, the classic GameLoading "logic".
People's opinions aren't valid or well-educated unless they meet your self-serving "standards". Or, in short, if they don't agree with you, they're "wrong".
You haven't changed a bit since the Archlord days; just as arrogant, presumptuous, closed-minded and hyper-opinionated as ever.
So you don't have to keep trying to diagnose my "problem", my point-of-view can be portrayed as such:
People are presented a list of games to choose from. Common-sense would say that they are likely to vote for the game they feel deserves it, for their own reasons. Likewise, they are likely to not vote for a game they don't feel deserves it, again for their own reasons.
Every person who comes here had the opportunity to vote. Everyone who voted in that poll had the same options as everyone else. More people chose LoTRO, so LoTRO won.
See? Simple.
All this "well-educated" and "valid" crap is just more of the same from you; trying to tear apart and invalidate opinions you disagree with using your own subjective and self-serving criteria. Just like you did back on the Archlord forums.
You can't tolerate differing opinions, GL, and you never could.
The thing with mmorpg.com award is that every person with a connection to the internet can vote. Now lets stay realistic: How many people here have actually PLAYED and EXPERIENCED all the games listed? If it's more than 10%, I'll be impressed. If you haven't played or experienced all these games and expanstions, how can you make an objective vote?
Short answer: You can't. The result is that this poll is all about fanboyism and bias, not actual product quality.
Of course it's biased... It's a poll asking players for their personal opinions of which game deserves an award. So naturally, the votes are going to be based on personal bias. What's the problem here?
You're over-complicating a simple situation to suit your own ends (you don't like the results, so you must seek to invalidate them - just like always).
And, once again invoking common-sense, why the hell would someone vote for a game they don't play or at least don't like? The reason why I cite critics is that if you look at the games from an objective viewpoints, WotLK clearly comes out on top and it really shows just how little quality has to do with the results.
Okay... I'm going to type this slowly so you can follow along more easily...
This - is - not - an - impartial - industry - review - based - on - objective - criteria.
This - is - a - subjective - reader/player - poll - based - on - personal - opinion.
They - are - not - the - same - thing.
Keep reading that 'til it sinks in.
There is no "criteria" to be met to validate or invalidate people's votes. I know how badly you want to pretend there is because your entire dismissal of the results depends on it... but it's just not there.
You can pretend it matters all day long and give as many arguments as you want. People have opinions for whatever reason and it is not your place to come here and "police" those opinions by pondering whose vote is "well-educated" (ie. they agree with you) and whose isn't (ie. they disagree with you).
Once again, you do not decide the criteria, and you cannot assume to know the particulars of every person who voted. So stop presuming to. And, going from your posting history, I would bet $20 that if the game won that *you* felt deserved it, you wouldn't have questioned the validity of the votes at all. Every winning vote would have been well-educated and valid, simply because they agreed with you.
That's a mouth full. "Arrogant, close minded, presumptuos", I really hope you didn't trip over your own tongue with all the name calling. Apparently when you point out that not everybody on an mmorpg forum is an expert on mmorpg quality and that "opinions" can actually be *gasp* wrong, you're suddenly arrogant, close minded and all the other things you, for some reason, felt a need to call me.
Now I'm going to explain a few things to you so even you might understand it.
You think that it's completely normal for people to be biased and you act as if it's completely fine. And, ofcourse, it is fine as long as you take these awards with a grain of salt. But you see, a lot of people, myself included, would like to see these awards being given to the developers that really deserve them, and not turn into a fanboy/hater fest that they have turned into now.
As long as people are unable to vote from an objective standpoint, the awards do not live up to their name. Is Mines of Moria the best expansion of 2008? Heck no, Mines of Moria is the expansion that received the most votes after a huge mass of biased people vote to make sure Wrath of the Lich King would not win the award.
It's like asking the fans of a sports team which team is the best. Are they going to give an objective, well educated response? Heck no, they are going to pick the team they cheer for which is probably because they were born in a certain state/town.
The result is that the opinion becomes completely meaningless.
Also, I am well within my right to criticize the results and other peoples opinion, unless an admit tells me to stop.
the mmorpg.com awards are no different. I'd love awards based on quality, but with the prejudice against WoW, it's simply not going to happen.
As long as people are unable to vote from an objective standpoint, the awards do not live up to their name. Is Mines of Moria the best expansion of 2008? Heck no, Mines of Moria is the expansion that received the most votes after a huge mass of biased people vote to make sure Wrath of the Lich King would not win the award. It's like asking the fans of a sports team which team is the best. Are they going to give an objective, well educated response? Heck no, they are going to pick the team they cheer for which is probably because they were born in a certain state/town. The result is that the opinion becomes completely meaningless. Also, I am well within my right to criticize the results and other peoples opinion, unless an admit tells me to stop. the mmorpg.com awards are no different. I'd love awards based on quality, but with the prejudice against WoW, it's simply not going to happen.
Damn you really take this award (and your own opinon) very seriously!
So how are we going to base it on "quality"? There is a review on metacrtitc that gave AoC 97/100. Is that an ok opinion from a proffesional reviewer and an unbiased opinion? I read a review that gave MoM 1/5 that said nothing about the game or the features of the expansion... Me and many others are more impressed of what Turibne did with MoM than they are of the WoW expansion and I think this vote reflects that. But I believe that Wotlk is more polished and have probably more content than MoM but thats not what this award is about...
Im looking forward to when they announce the winner of "best over all game" where everyone could vote for their favourite and not just 5 choices
If WoW = The Beatles and WAR = Led Zeppelin Then LotrO = Pink Floyd
Huh...in reading the metacritic reviews i noticed something.
On a major public review website, while the metascore is 86 for MoM and 91 for WotLK, their player reviews are quite different.
9.1/10 for MoM
6.9/10 for WotLK
Why am I pointing this out, because of logic. Metasore is an amalgam of critic reviews. And what exactly is a critics review other than a popular individuals point of view?
You can't say a critics review is unbiased, you can't say it's balanced either. It's just like everyone else's in that they simply an individual that has been informed of the game and given time to tinker with it, then jusdge it on the mertis they deem worthy.
Obviously there are people out there that are better than others at this, and they are likely the ones that get paid to be cirtics.
My experience however from both knowing critics personally and reading many reviews I don't agree with have made me realise a very solid fact.
They're people too and as such their opinion is not worth more than any unpaid gamers point of view on the issue at hand. Especially if you take into account some of those player reviews are actually well written and intelligent.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Congratulations, Turbine! I have played WotLK and MoM, and I voted for MoM. It is hands down the better of the two. Northrend was a great new area, but Blizzard managed to further imbalance their game to the point of "breaking" PvP, as witnessed by the flood of complaints on their forums. Meanwhile, Turbine improved on seemingly every aspect of the game, including some areas that were lacking. Moreover, they managed to continue to add to the lore of an already great story without alienating Lord of the Rings (the books) fanboys. There were tons of jaw-dropping moments in both games, great new content, and great features, but MoM managed to do it without introducing any new disappointments for me, as well.
With just under 4k votes casts for this award, it shows how little read this website is by the majority of MMO players in the genre. I mean hell, 4k people is almost what DAoC has active on a daily basis. So I take these awards with a grain of salt, because these rewards don't represent what the majority think or what professionals think like most serious awards. ... except that MoM is getting high praise from "professionals" as well; assuming that by "professionals", you mean major gaming sites and publications. Just look around at the reviews from different gaming sites and magazines. They all give it high scores.
That, and polls never represent an entire population, but a sampling of it. The poll is no different here. And, given the praise it's getting in the press, I think the results of this poll are at least consistent.
So yes, to say the results of this poll are way off would be an understatement.
That's a mouth full. "Arrogant, close minded, presumptuos", I really hope you didn't trip over your own tongue with all the name calling.
Nope, no tripping at all. I'm not name calling, either. Based on your replies here and your history in the Archlord forums, those are very appropriate descriptions of your attitude toward people who disagree with you.
If the shoe fits...
Apparently when you point out that not everybody on an mmorpg forum is an expert on mmorpg quality and that "opinions" can actually be *gasp* wrong, you're suddenly arrogant, close minded and all the other things you, for some reason, felt a need to call me.
Again, I was describing your attitude, GL; the way you respond to and regard those you disagree with. That's not name calling, that's calling out a behavior for what it is.
If I really wanted to "name call", you would know the difference. Name calling is the last resort of someone with no arguments. Your short-sighted and absurd theories leave plenty of room for argument. Even if I were the type to name-call, I would have no reason to.
Merely disagreeing with opinions is one thing. That's understandable and is what forums are for.
What you do, however, goes beyond that. You assume people don't have a good reason for how they voted. You then declare their votes "wrong", "invalid" or not "well educated", simply because you disagree with them. You then attempt to point to all these "sources" to prove it, and make baseless generalizations without proof to "back it up".
Instead of simply saying "wow, okay I really don't agree with those results", and leaving it at that, you go on a crusade to dissassemble, disprove and invalidate the votes; to "prove people wrong". Because you don't like the outcome.
Yes, that is an arrogant and closed-minded attitude.
Now I'm going to explain a few things to you so even you might understand it.
You think that it's completely normal for people to be biased and you act as if it's completely fine.
I have no opinion either way. People *are* biased.
Yes, even you, as you proved time and again on the Archlord forums when you were cheer-leading for that game. Despite your repeated attempts to claim some unbiased high-ground, the selective application of your "objective criteria" made your bias quite clear. I'll happily cite an example if you'd like.
And, ofcourse, it is fine as long as you take these awards with a grain of salt. But you see, a lot of people, myself included, would like to see these awards being given to the developers that really deserve them, and not turn into a fanboy/hater fest that they have turned into now.
Given to the developers that really deserve them? It did go to the most deserving ones.. It went to the ones with the most votes.
Oh, you mean the ones that *you* would have chosen, of course. Of course, all the votes here don't matter because, to you, the right company didn't win.
... and then you act surprised when described as arrogant and closed-minded.
I couldn't care less who wins or loses. The votes speak for themselves. I'm merely pointing out the flaws in your argument.
However, it still stands:
That more people voted for LoTRO in this poll than for any other nominee indicates that it *does* deserve it. That's how polls work. 1+1 = 2.
No matter how you try to break it down, call people fanboys or questioin the the validity of the votes, everyone had the same chance to choose any of the games nominated. More chose LoTRO. That's it. End of discussion.
Because you disagree with the results doesn't mean they're not valid.
As long as people are unable to vote from an objective standpoint, the awards do not live up to their name. Is Mines of Moria the best expansion of 2008? Heck no, Mines of Moria is the expansion that received the most votes after a huge mass of biased people vote to make sure Wrath of the Lich King would not win the award.
So people weren't voting for MoM... They were voting against WoTLK. And even with several games to choose from, they all chose MoM...
To put it another way...
Entertaining your conspiracy theory for a moment, a vote for any of the other 4 nominees would have been a vote against WoTLK, as would have been no vote at all. Correct? Yet, all those people somehow rallied together, coordinated and voted for MoM; enough to give it a 23.3% lead on WoTLK, and take 48.3% of the votes overall.
And this doesn't seem at all far-fetched to you.
Yeah, that's lucid.
The government called... They need their black helicopters back.
It's like asking the fans of a sports team which team is the best. Are they going to give an objective, well educated response? Heck no, they are going to pick the team they cheer for which is probably because they were born in a certain state/town.
Now you're using flawed analogies to support an equally flawed argument. You're getting pretty desperate.
I know plenty of sports fans who readily acknowledge their team is having a horrible season, or isn't playing well or, certainly, isn't the "best team". I also know fans who do not choose a team simply because it's their "home town". Got any more lame generalizations to toss around?
Keep trying to find new ways to claim that the votes are not valid. The plain-as-day reality remains the same:
Everyone had the same opportunity to vote for any of the games nominated. This wasn't a "controlled" or "rigged" vote. There were no hanging or dimpled chads that could be judged subjectively for a preferred candidate. No one was turned away from the voting booths. It was a very definitive choice that people made.
LoTRO won because given the choices, more felt MoM most deserved it.
Again, 1+1 = 2.
The result is that the opinion becomes completely meaningless. To you they are, because you don't like who won. Also, I am well within my right to criticize the results and other peoples opinion, unless an admit tells me to stop.
Are you trying to put words in my mouth?
I never said you didn't have a right to criticize.
You absolutely do.
You also have a right to look ridiculous doing it.
You're 2 for 2. Not bad. the mmorpg.com awards are no different. I'd love awards based on quality, but with the prejudice against WoW, it's simply not going to happen.
Yes, GL, you've got it all figured out. You've uncovered the conspiracy and proven that it had nothing to do with MoM simply getting more votes.
You know what's funny. You talk about people's votes not being "well educated" or "invalid" to dismantle the results of a poll. Yet, here you are conjuring up these wild and, frankly, paranoid theories that you can't prove as "well educated" nor "valid", either. Is that slowing you down? Not at all. Just like back in the Archlord forums, somehow your own criteria never applies to yourself or those who agree with you.
Let's just strip away the nonsense and sum it up like this:
MoM shouldn't have won in your opinion. It did. You're bitter.
It's okay. I have more sugar if you need it.
Perhaps you should try that "grain of salt" thing you mentioned earlier.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Originally posted by Deivos Huh...in reading the metacritic reviews i noticed something.
On a major public review website, while the metascore is 86 for MoM and 91 for WotLK, their player reviews are quite different.
9.1/10 for MoM
6.9/10 for WotLK
Why am I pointing this out, because of logic. Metasore is an amalgam of critic reviews. And what exactly is a critics review other than a popular individuals point of view?
Wait? Didn't someone say in this very thread that industry reviews do not necessarily reflect, qualify nor disqualify the opinions of the players?
Oh wait, I said that.
Well, how about that.
Thanks for providing the numbers there to back it up You can't say a critics review is unbiased, you can't say it's balanced either. It's just like everyone else's in that they simply an individual that has been informed of the game and given time to tinker with it, then jusdge it on the mertis they deem worthy. Yep, which is why I say industry reviews are (ideally) based on unbiased criteria, but can still be biased.
GL isn't having any of that though. His "all the WoW haters voted for MoM" theory seems much more rational to him.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Short answer: You can't. The result is that this poll is all about fanboyism and bias, not actual product quality.
No shit, it’s a READER CHOICE AWARD. That doesn’t mean that the quality is not there. Because it is, the two are not mutually exclusive.
If you would stop babbling about this BS, and read what others have posted here as to why they voted one way or the other, you would see why LOTRO won.
Also, please note, LOTRO has 14 reviews, WOTLK has 41 to make the average of your Critic score.
It's undeniable that the quality isn't there because from an objective point of view, WOTLK scores higher than MoM and yet Lotro wins with a landslide victory here.
What the hell do reviews have to do with quality? Nothing, LOTRO:MoM is a quality product. Pure and simple, in fact Turbine has shown time and time again with LOTRO they know what they are doing, and regularly exceed player expectations in terms of technical execution, timeliness, completeness and polish. Turbine added 4 entire zones and about just as many features FOR FREE in its first year of operation. Very little downtime, and the content was GOOD.
It doesn't matter what people post here, because I don't believe for a moment that even half of the people who voted here did so with an objective and educated mindset. For that, you need to look no further than yourself.
" they also have 25 man raids, something blizzard has recently decided to mimic"
Blizzard decided to mimic? what? WoW already had a 20 man raid dungeon about 2 years before Lotro was even released.
I was referring to MAX, as in LOTRO knows its player base, its target, and the current trend of MMO players and shipped with 25 man raids as MAX, because they know the core player base does not have time for 40 man raids.
In my opinion, it is very clear why people have voted for Lotro. Because Blizzard is the big bad bully, and Turbine is this cute little company offering an alternative to WoW.
Your opinion is incorrect, as evidenced by the reasoning people here have posted. Including "Professional critics". You are just mad your game of the moment did not win. Pure and simple. Wow is a fine game in its self, but its the fast food of MMO's, Turbine is a small boutique offering a catered experience, and they do it WELL.
"Lotro is not about the endgame, it's about the journey to it!" Unfortunately Lotro's quest are, just like WoW, little more than "Go kill XX" or "Go find XX" with a storyline mission thrown in every now and then to keep the story moving, only difference being that WoW has a lot more content untill you reach the cap level. The endgame in Lotro is nowhere near that of WoW's, so the correct translation of the phrase "It's not about the endgame" would be "The endgame sucks".
You’re comparing a game that has a completely different focus to another, completely different focus. This is why you’re failing to understand. They are two different games, with two different (but overlapping) player bases. You are also comparing a 4 year old game to a 2 year old one. LOTRO is about story, not ding/loot/gratz/catassing/poosticking. To say that LOTRO's quests are just like wows shows you have NO idea what you are talking about, while some of them are fillers...the comparison is laughable. The quility of the quests in LOTRO far surpasses anything in Wow.... Perhaps you should read the quests and story instead of scrolling down to the bottom and accepting. You have been conditioned by Wow to play mindlessly it seems.
People will write entire essays to write what they don't like about WoW's PVP system but when Lotro's monster play comes up, it usually goes "It sucks, but it's not the focus of the game" as if that is a valid excuse for it being the way it is.
Well, IT ISN'T THE FOCUSE OF THE GAME. That’s like saying, that tank sucks, because it can't fly, my airplane is better. However, Monster play is an ingenious way to have PvP at all with out breaking the LORE of the game....this isn’t something turbine is just making up you know. Give credit where credit is due. Monster play is quite fun, and i personally find it much more compelling to participate in than Wows unbalanced bullshit PvP. Have fun with your Twink, because you are so skilled.
I do not think you understand who and what turbine is, how they have influenced, and pioneered a good portion of this industry. I also do not think you have one single "objectionable" view on this subject at all.
The bias of your entire argument is this. Your game did not win, you cant understand why, because it has 11 million people playing it. So it must be good.
LOTRO's quests, and instances are some of the best in the current market, the game is self is constantly showing how turbine is exceptional at what they do, and has a solid finger on the pulse of its community, and the current working of the MMO player base. From the engine, to the updates, to the absolute quality of the game its self, they have shown time and time again that LOTRO is perhaps one of the most refined MMO experiences ever created.
As a new player, if you send me your e-mail, ill send you a trail, so you can finally play the game you talk so much crap about.
Yes, even "Professional critics" say the same thing....
To each his own.
This expansion was fantastic, and flexes turbines technical skill. Get over it.
Before you even say it, i am a fan of all games. However, ignoring what makes LOTRO great is just like ignoring what makes Wow great. This isn’t highlander, there doesn’t need to be only one.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
One of them doesnt have either MoM or Wotlk on his list
One of them have Mines of Moria as #4 but no Wotlk in his top 10
and one them have Wrath of the lich king as #5 but no MoM in his top 10
So what does that tell us? That some think that MoM was better and some think that Wotlk was better and on MMORPG.com the readers voted for Mines of Moria...
If WoW = The Beatles and WAR = Led Zeppelin Then LotrO = Pink Floyd
Short answer: You can't. The result is that this poll is all about fanboyism and bias, not actual product quality.
Before you even say it, i am a fan of all games. However, ignoring what makes LOTRO great is just like ignoring what makes Wow great. This isn’t highlander, there doesn’t need to be only one.
No disagreement with you responses, MrBloodworth... I agree pretty much 100%, having played both games pretty extensively. When you get past the "surface" stuff, and the standard MMO fare that all MMOs have in common, LoTRO does stand apart on its own as a unique game.
My own sister, who's a raving WoW fan (and thinks I'm nuts for not playing it), subbed to LoTRO for a bit and acknokwledged it; I think she explained it best:
"The controls and the basic things like getting quests and talking to NPCs is similar. Other than that it's a very different game".
Turbine have also been given much praise and accolades, by industry and players alike, since the game's launch at their dedication to regular content updates for no added cost, and an overall sound and stable game.
That said, I do have a question... I'm seeing these terms, catassing and, for the first time in your post, poosticking... What do they mean?
Thanks
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Short answer: You can't. The result is that this poll is all about fanboyism and bias, not actual product quality.
Before you even say it, i am a fan of all games. However, ignoring what makes LOTRO great is just like ignoring what makes Wow great. This isn’t highlander, there doesn’t need to be only one.
No disagreement with you responses, MrBloodworth... I agree pretty much 100%, having played both games pretty extensively. When you get past the "surface" stuff, and the standard MMO fare that all MMOs have in common, LoTRO does stand apart on its own as a unique game.
My own sister, who's a raving WoW fan (and thinks I'm nuts for not playing it), subbed to LoTRO for a bit and acknokwledged it; I think she explained it best:
"The controls and the basic things like getting quests and talking to NPCs is similar. Other than that it's a very different game".
Turbine have also been given much praise and accolades, by industry and players alike, since the game's launch at their dedication to regular content updates for no added cost, and an overall sound and stable game.
That said, I do have a question... I'm seeing these terms, catassing and, for the first time in your post, poosticking... What do they mean?
Thanks
catass (n) - One who plays plays an MMO for extreme lengths of time (such as days, weeks, or months of near-uninterrupted play). This may come at the expense of hygiene, social interaction, and nutrition. Originated with the article "The Surreal World" by Hayes Reed where he described an Ultima Online obsessed friend's apartment as, "A den of cat ass and murdered time."
catass (v) - The act of playing an MMO (or any game) for an extreme length of time, to the point that such behavior is easily identified.
Poopsock (n) A person who has become so addicted to their game of choice, that they refuse to leave their computer for extended periods of time and use any nearby container to defecate in, e.g. a sock.
I heard Brian played WoW for 18 hours yesterday, what a poopsock!
Poopsock (v) Playing a game (particularly an MMO) for a very long, uninterrupted session. See above.
Did you hear that Hello Kitty Online is coming out next week? I'm gonna poopsock that mother&$%@!*.
Poopstick (n) Replace sock, with stick.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
And its interesting how different the opinions of unbiased and profesional reviewers can be. This is the list of 3 PC editors of IGN.com top 10 favourite games of the year! http://pc.ign.com/articles/943/943930p1.html Guess what? One of them doesnt have either MoM or Wotlk on his list One of them have Mines of Moria as #4 but no Wotlk in his top 10 and one them have Wrath of the lich king as #5 but no MoM in his top 10 So what does that tell us? That some think that MoM was better and some think that Wotlk was better and on MMORPG.com the readers voted for Mines of Moria...
Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Short answer: You can't. The result is that this poll is all about fanboyism and bias, not actual product quality.
Before you even say it, i am a fan of all games. However, ignoring what makes LOTRO great is just like ignoring what makes Wow great. This isn’t highlander, there doesn’t need to be only one.
No disagreement with you responses, MrBloodworth... I agree pretty much 100%, having played both games pretty extensively. When you get past the "surface" stuff, and the standard MMO fare that all MMOs have in common, LoTRO does stand apart on its own as a unique game.
My own sister, who's a raving WoW fan (and thinks I'm nuts for not playing it), subbed to LoTRO for a bit and acknokwledged it; I think she explained it best:
"The controls and the basic things like getting quests and talking to NPCs is similar. Other than that it's a very different game".
Turbine have also been given much praise and accolades, by industry and players alike, since the game's launch at their dedication to regular content updates for no added cost, and an overall sound and stable game.
That said, I do have a question... I'm seeing these terms, catassing and, for the first time in your post, poosticking... What do they mean?
Thanks
catass (n) - One who plays plays an MMO for extreme lengths of time (such as days, weeks, or months of near-uninterrupted play). This may come at the expense of hygiene, social interaction, and nutrition. Originated with the article "The Surreal World" by Hayes Reed where he described an Ultima Online obsessed friend's apartment as, "A den of cat ass and murdered time."
catass (v) - The act of playing an MMO (or any game) for an extreme length of time, to the point that such behavior is easily identified.
Poopsock (n) A person who has become so addicted to their game of choice, that they refuse to leave their computer for extended periods of time and use any nearby container to defecate in, e.g. a sock.
I heard Brian played WoW for 18 hours yesterday, what a poopsock!
Poopsock (v) Playing a game (particularly an MMO) for a very long, uninterrupted session. See above.
Did you hear that Hello Kitty Online is coming out next week? I'm gonna poopsock that mother&$%@!*.
Poopstick (n) Replace sock, with stick.
lol awesome.
Luckily I don't fit any of those categories :-p
Thanks
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
here i have a hunch for results... What if the wow players were to atracted to the game, and nver got on any other site cuz there to busy enjoying or not enjoying just wasting there life?...
nah idk. i like turbine, i liked lotro. just as i saw i did not have enough time at that point to keep playing lotro, i never tried expansion, but i believe turbine would have done a fine job. im no wow boy, im no Lotro boy either. i just play a game i see fit to my style, time, and quality.
I think LOTRO is an alright MMO, nothing spectacular. The issue I have currently is they are trying to mimic WoW too much and I dislike the direction WoW took their game. I left LOTRO because of class balance issues they have caused in the expansion. They have introduced trait lines for one that mimic WoWs talent tree system providing players ways to diverge away from their role. I see this as blurring class roles as they did in WoW and ruined WoW.
I liked WoW in the beginning when we had defined class roles. Now classes are all dps with a little flare between them. In LOTRO it seems they are aiming for that same broken system. They recently changed class descriptions of game roles for some of their classes ... which you should not do midgame on any game. Burglars are hardly primary debuffers any more, which in the moria manual doesn't even claim they are anymore. Champions the aoe dps class is main tanking more than any class at the moment. Guardians are having the same issues Warriors were having in WoW with agro issues and not being wanted after the devs decided to try to go down the same road WoW has. What is funny is they are having the same issues WoW did as they do it.
LOTRO has become about DPSing dungeons instead of strong group strategy of the original. The way the people on this forum make the game sound is as if it was the perfect MMO. I just want to say, LOTRO is an alright MMO, it has problems like any other MMO. They introduced a lot of balance issues in the expansion and threw class roles in a loop a bit. The content in the dungeon is a little too easy. The dungeon monsters hit for too little to the point no one cares if they pull agro, it will not cause a light armor wearers death if they did anyhow.
I dislike it when MMOs drastically restructure classes and there roles mid game after you chose your character for the reasons you did. I did not like it in WoW and I did not like it in LOTRO. No bias here, I currently do not play either. I let my subscription end recently after doing all the content and coming to the realization that indeed LOTRO is very similar in WoW in the fact they are going away from solid class roles. Still it is an okay casual game, not much to do in the game but it is very solo friendly and doesn't require much time to accomplish anything.
Overall I would probably give it a 8.5. It is one of the better MMOs out right now if that tells you anything.
Wish all the bent out of shape WOW players weren't such sore losers, and yes I agree that I have a feeling if the results were different that all these people saying that MMORPG's awards aren't really big would be singing a different toon if Lich King had won.
Or maybe we were just too busy having fun to come here and vote in your stupid poll.
Wait, I mean being giant tools and racing to level 80 so we don't miss out on any DKP.
einexile the meek Vacuos, Winterlong, Vaciante, Eicosapenta Atlantean, Tyranny, Malton
Comments
oh~my favorite are on the list of winner, wow and lord of rings online are the best 2 deserve the call
To compare the average critic scores:
www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/lordoftheringsonlineminesofmoria
Mines of Moria: 8.6
www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/worldofwarcraftwrathofthelichking
Wrath of the Lich King: 9.1
So yes, to say the results of this poll are way off would be an understatement.
Why is that odd to you?
Have you ever read book, music or movie reviews, and then seen how different or divided reader/listener/watcher opinions can be by comparison? The same holds true for games. It's not exactly some alien concept.... well I guess to you it is given your response.
Find me a critic or reviewer, anywhere, for anything, whose opinions/reviews are never disagreed with. You can't, because no such person exists
Let's try something...
We'll call it a mind opening exercise.
Okay... if you could, just for a moment... Step out of your own head and pretend that there are millions of people in this world with minds of their own. Now pretend that those people are all capable of forming their own opinions and, even better, offering them when asked.
Still with me? Okay good...
This is where it's gonna get tough for you...
Envision thousands of those people whose opinions, likes and dislikes don't necessarily match your own, or those you agree with.
Take a breath. Told you this would get tough. Accepting that others have different opinions than you and that theirs are just as valid can be difficult to swallow for a hyper-opinionated, closed-minded person. It gets easier with time and, besides, that's what this exercise is for.
Let me know when you're ready to continue.
Ready?
Okay, good..
Now imagine all those people, with minds and views and voices of their own, are invited to cast their votes in a player poll for best expansion for a MMORPG. Imagine that, despite what might seem like the "obvious", "correct" choice to you, they all vote for a different game, and that game wins by a substantial margin. The world doesn't stop turning. The sky doesn't fall. The sun still rises and sets like normal.
Now, take a deep breath, snap out of it, come back to reality and accept that that's exactly what happened here. People were invited to vote for what they felt was the best expansion. They did and LoTRO got the most votes. Don't point at what meta-critic shows, because that doesn't mean anything here. These polls reflect player opinion, not industry reviews.
I'm sure there are plenty who agree with you and didn't choose it. There were simply more in this poll who didn't agree with you.
Why is that so difficult to accept?
Bottom line: The award went to the game that, in your opinion, shouldn't have gotten it. A lot of people disagreed with you. Learn to deal with it, and move on.
Or, continue griping about it.
Whatever gets you through the night.
As an aside, I do find it funny when you start citing reviewers like that. From past experience, I know you'd just as quickly dismiss those same reviews if they didn't support your argument.
The biggest problem with your point of view is that you like to believe that every opinion is valid and well educated, and this is simply not true.
The thing with mmorpg.com award is that every person with a connection to the internet can vote. Now lets stay realistic: How many people here have actually PLAYED and EXPERIENCED all the games listed? If it's more than 10%, I'll be impressed. If you haven't played or experienced all these games and expanstions, how can you make an objective vote?
Short answer: You can't. The result is that this poll is all about fanboyism and bias, not actual product quality.
The reason why I cite critics is that if you look at the games from an objective viewpoints, WotLK clearly comes out on top and it really shows just how little quality has to do with the results.
No shit, it’s a READER CHOICE AWARD. That doesn’t mean that the quality is not there. Because it is, the two are not mutually exclusive.
If you would stop babbling about this BS, and read what others have posted here as to why they voted one way or the other, you would see why LOTRO won.
Also, please note, LOTRO has 14 reviews, WOTLK has 41 to make the average of your Critic score.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
No shit, it’s a READER CHOICE AWARD. That doesn’t mean that the quality is not there. Because it is, the two are not mutually exclusive.
If you would stop babbling about this BS, and read what others have posted here as to why they voted one way or the other, you would see why LOTRO won.
Also, please note, LOTRO has 14 reviews, WOTLK has 41 to make the average of your Critic score.
It's undeniable that the quality isn't there because from an objective point of view, WOTLK scores higher than MoM and yet Lotro wins with a landslide victory here.
It doesn't matter what people post here, because I don't believe for a moment that even half of the people who voted here did so with an objective and educated mindset. For that, you need to look no further than yourself.
" they also have 25 man raids, something blizzard has recently decided to mimic"
Blizzard decided to mimic? what? WoW already had a 20 man raid dungeon about 2 years before Lotro was even released.
In my opinion, it is very clear why people have voted for Lotro. Because Blizzard is the big bad bully, and Turbine is this cute little company offering an alternative to WoW.
I think it pretty much goes like this:
Look at the nominations:
- EVE empyrean age
- Mines of Moria
- Seeds of Destruction
- Shadow of Odyssey
- Wrath of the Lich King
The only company with a worse reputation than Blizzard on this forum is SOE, so that leaves out Seeds of Destruction and Shadow of Odyssey. It doesn't matter how good these expansions are, the fact that they are published by SOE means people won't vote for it. Next is EVE: Empyrean Age which quite a lot of people voted for but I think the fact it wasn't a traditional retail expansion kept it from getting votes. WoW players obviously voted for WoW, so that leaves with the biggest group: The people who hate WoW because it's big and mainstream, and since 2nd best is Lotro, it's obvious that's where the votes will go to.
People are far more forgiving to Turbine than they are for Blizzard
"Lotro is not about the endgame, it's about the journey to it!" Unfortunately Lotro's quest are, just like WoW, little more than "Go kill XX" or "Go find XX" with a storyline mission thrown in every now and then to keep the story moving, only difference being that WoW has a lot more content untill you reach the cap level. The endgame in Lotro is nowhere near that of WoW's, so the correct translation of the phrase "It's not about the endgame" would be "The endgame sucks".
People will write entire essays to write what they don't like about WoW's PVP system but when Lotro's monsterplay comes up, it usually goes "It sucks, but it's not the focus of the game" as if that is a valid excuse for it being the way it is.
Also, a game having less reviews is usually in its favor, as the score most of the time goes down as more and more reviews get added.
To compare the average critic scores:
www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/lordoftheringsonlineminesofmoria
Mines of Moria: 8.6
www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/worldofwarcraftwrathofthelichking
Wrath of the Lich King: 9.1
So yes, to say the results of this poll are way off would be an understatement.
The biggest problem with your point of view is that you like to believe that every opinion is valid and well educated, and this is simply not true.
Ahhh yes, the classic GameLoading "logic".People's opinions aren't valid or well-educated unless they meet your self-serving "standards". Or, in short, if they don't agree with you, they're "wrong".
You haven't changed a bit since the Archlord days; just as arrogant, presumptuous, closed-minded and hyper-opinionated as ever.
So you don't have to keep trying to diagnose my "problem", my point-of-view can be portrayed as such:
People are presented a list of games to choose from. Common-sense would say that they are likely to vote for the game they feel deserves it, for their own reasons. Likewise, they are likely to not vote for a game they don't feel deserves it, again for their own reasons.
Every person who comes here had the opportunity to vote. Everyone who voted in that poll had the same options as everyone else. More people chose LoTRO, so LoTRO won.
See? Simple.
All this "well-educated" and "valid" crap is just more of the same from you; trying to tear apart and invalidate opinions you disagree with using your own self-serving "standards". Just like you did back on the Archlord forums. It's nothing but a red herring. You can't tolerate differing opinions, GL, and you never could.
The thing with mmorpg.com award is that every person with a connection to the internet can vote. Now lets stay realistic: How many people here have actually PLAYED and EXPERIENCED all the games listed? If it's more than 10%, I'll be impressed. If you haven't played or experienced all these games and expanstions, how can you make an objective vote?
Short answer: You can't. The result is that this poll is all about fanboyism and bias, not actual product quality.
Of course it's biased... It's a poll asking players for their personal opinions of which game deserves an award. So naturally, the votes are going to be based on personal bias. What's the problem here?
You're over-complicating a simple situation to suit your own ends (you don't like the results, so you must seek to invalidate them - just like always).
And, once again invoking common-sense, why the hell would someone vote for a game they don't play or at least don't like?
The reason why I cite critics is that if you look at the games from an objective viewpoints, WotLK clearly comes out on top and it really shows just how little quality has to do with the results.
Okay... I'm going to type this slowly so you can follow along more easily...
This - is - not - an - impartial - industry - review - based - on - objective - criteria.
This - is - a - subjective - reader/player - poll - based - on - personal - opinion.
They - are - not - the - same - thing.
One - does - not - qualify - nor - disqualify - the - other.
Keep reading that 'til it sinks in.
There is no "criteria" to be met to validate or invalidate people's votes. I know how badly you want to pretend there is because your entire dismissal of the results depends on it... but it's just not there.
You can pretend it matters all day long and give as many arguments as you want. People form opinions based on their own likes and dislikes. It is not your place to come here and "police" those opinions by pondering whose vote is "well-educated" (ie. they agree with you) and whose isn't (ie. they disagree with you).
Once again, you do not decide the criteria, and you cannot assume to know the particulars of every person who voted. So stop presuming to.
And, going from your posting history, I would bet $20 that if the game won that *you* felt deserved it, you wouldn't have questioned the validity of the votes at all. Every winning vote would have been well-educated and valid, simply because they agreed with you.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
To compare the average critic scores:
www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/lordoftheringsonlineminesofmoria
Mines of Moria: 8.6
www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/worldofwarcraftwrathofthelichking
Wrath of the Lich King: 9.1
So yes, to say the results of this poll are way off would be an understatement.
The biggest problem with your point of view is that you like to believe that every opinion is valid and well educated, and this is simply not true.
Ahhh yes, the classic GameLoading "logic".People's opinions aren't valid or well-educated unless they meet your self-serving "standards". Or, in short, if they don't agree with you, they're "wrong".
You haven't changed a bit since the Archlord days; just as arrogant, presumptuous, closed-minded and hyper-opinionated as ever.
So you don't have to keep trying to diagnose my "problem", my point-of-view can be portrayed as such:
People are presented a list of games to choose from. Common-sense would say that they are likely to vote for the game they feel deserves it, for their own reasons. Likewise, they are likely to not vote for a game they don't feel deserves it, again for their own reasons.
Every person who comes here had the opportunity to vote. Everyone who voted in that poll had the same options as everyone else. More people chose LoTRO, so LoTRO won.
See? Simple.
All this "well-educated" and "valid" crap is just more of the same from you; trying to tear apart and invalidate opinions you disagree with using your own subjective and self-serving criteria. Just like you did back on the Archlord forums.
You can't tolerate differing opinions, GL, and you never could.
The thing with mmorpg.com award is that every person with a connection to the internet can vote. Now lets stay realistic: How many people here have actually PLAYED and EXPERIENCED all the games listed? If it's more than 10%, I'll be impressed. If you haven't played or experienced all these games and expanstions, how can you make an objective vote?
Short answer: You can't. The result is that this poll is all about fanboyism and bias, not actual product quality.
Of course it's biased... It's a poll asking players for their personal opinions of which game deserves an award. So naturally, the votes are going to be based on personal bias. What's the problem here?
You're over-complicating a simple situation to suit your own ends (you don't like the results, so you must seek to invalidate them - just like always).
And, once again invoking common-sense, why the hell would someone vote for a game they don't play or at least don't like?
The reason why I cite critics is that if you look at the games from an objective viewpoints, WotLK clearly comes out on top and it really shows just how little quality has to do with the results.
Okay... I'm going to type this slowly so you can follow along more easily...
This - is - not - an - impartial - industry - review - based - on - objective - criteria.
This - is - a - subjective - reader/player - poll - based - on - personal - opinion.
They - are - not - the - same - thing.
Keep reading that 'til it sinks in.
There is no "criteria" to be met to validate or invalidate people's votes. I know how badly you want to pretend there is because your entire dismissal of the results depends on it... but it's just not there.
You can pretend it matters all day long and give as many arguments as you want. People have opinions for whatever reason and it is not your place to come here and "police" those opinions by pondering whose vote is "well-educated" (ie. they agree with you) and whose isn't (ie. they disagree with you).
Once again, you do not decide the criteria, and you cannot assume to know the particulars of every person who voted. So stop presuming to.
And, going from your posting history, I would bet $20 that if the game won that *you* felt deserved it, you wouldn't have questioned the validity of the votes at all. Every winning vote would have been well-educated and valid, simply because they agreed with you.
That's a mouth full. "Arrogant, close minded, presumptuos", I really hope you didn't trip over your own tongue with all the name calling. Apparently when you point out that not everybody on an mmorpg forum is an expert on mmorpg quality and that "opinions" can actually be *gasp* wrong, you're suddenly arrogant, close minded and all the other things you, for some reason, felt a need to call me.
Now I'm going to explain a few things to you so even you might understand it.
You think that it's completely normal for people to be biased and you act as if it's completely fine. And, ofcourse, it is fine as long as you take these awards with a grain of salt. But you see, a lot of people, myself included, would like to see these awards being given to the developers that really deserve them, and not turn into a fanboy/hater fest that they have turned into now.
As long as people are unable to vote from an objective standpoint, the awards do not live up to their name. Is Mines of Moria the best expansion of 2008? Heck no, Mines of Moria is the expansion that received the most votes after a huge mass of biased people vote to make sure Wrath of the Lich King would not win the award.
It's like asking the fans of a sports team which team is the best. Are they going to give an objective, well educated response? Heck no, they are going to pick the team they cheer for which is probably because they were born in a certain state/town.
The result is that the opinion becomes completely meaningless.
Also, I am well within my right to criticize the results and other peoples opinion, unless an admit tells me to stop.
the mmorpg.com awards are no different. I'd love awards based on quality, but with the prejudice against WoW, it's simply not going to happen.
Damn you really take this award (and your own opinon) very seriously!
So how are we going to base it on "quality"? There is a review on metacrtitc that gave AoC 97/100. Is that an ok opinion from a proffesional reviewer and an unbiased opinion? I read a review that gave MoM 1/5 that said nothing about the game or the features of the expansion... Me and many others are more impressed of what Turibne did with MoM than they are of the WoW expansion and I think this vote reflects that. But I believe that Wotlk is more polished and have probably more content than MoM but thats not what this award is about...
Im looking forward to when they announce the winner of "best over all game" where everyone could vote for their favourite and not just 5 choices
If WoW = The Beatles
and WAR = Led Zeppelin
Then LotrO = Pink Floyd
Huh...in reading the metacritic reviews i noticed something.
On a major public review website, while the metascore is 86 for MoM and 91 for WotLK, their player reviews are quite different.
9.1/10 for MoM
6.9/10 for WotLK
Why am I pointing this out, because of logic. Metasore is an amalgam of critic reviews. And what exactly is a critics review other than a popular individuals point of view?
You can't say a critics review is unbiased, you can't say it's balanced either. It's just like everyone else's in that they simply an individual that has been informed of the game and given time to tinker with it, then jusdge it on the mertis they deem worthy.
Obviously there are people out there that are better than others at this, and they are likely the ones that get paid to be cirtics.
My experience however from both knowing critics personally and reading many reviews I don't agree with have made me realise a very solid fact.
They're people too and as such their opinion is not worth more than any unpaid gamers point of view on the issue at hand. Especially if you take into account some of those player reviews are actually well written and intelligent.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Congratulations, Turbine! I have played WotLK and MoM, and I voted for MoM. It is hands down the better of the two. Northrend was a great new area, but Blizzard managed to further imbalance their game to the point of "breaking" PvP, as witnessed by the flood of complaints on their forums. Meanwhile, Turbine improved on seemingly every aspect of the game, including some areas that were lacking. Moreover, they managed to continue to add to the lore of an already great story without alienating Lord of the Rings (the books) fanboys. There were tons of jaw-dropping moments in both games, great new content, and great features, but MoM managed to do it without introducing any new disappointments for me, as well.
To compare the average critic scores:
www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/lordoftheringsonlineminesofmoria
Mines of Moria: 8.6
www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/worldofwarcraftwrathofthelichking
Wrath of the Lich King: 9.1
So yes, to say the results of this poll are way off would be an understatement.
That's a mouth full. "Arrogant, close minded, presumptuos", I really hope you didn't trip over your own tongue with all the name calling.
Nope, no tripping at all. I'm not name calling, either. Based on your replies here and your history in the Archlord forums, those are very appropriate descriptions of your attitude toward people who disagree with you.
If the shoe fits...
Apparently when you point out that not everybody on an mmorpg forum is an expert on mmorpg quality and that "opinions" can actually be *gasp* wrong, you're suddenly arrogant, close minded and all the other things you, for some reason, felt a need to call me.
Again, I was describing your attitude, GL; the way you respond to and regard those you disagree with. That's not name calling, that's calling out a behavior for what it is.
If I really wanted to "name call", you would know the difference. Name calling is the last resort of someone with no arguments. Your short-sighted and absurd theories leave plenty of room for argument. Even if I were the type to name-call, I would have no reason to.
Merely disagreeing with opinions is one thing. That's understandable and is what forums are for.
What you do, however, goes beyond that. You assume people don't have a good reason for how they voted. You then declare their votes "wrong", "invalid" or not "well educated", simply because you disagree with them. You then attempt to point to all these "sources" to prove it, and make baseless generalizations without proof to "back it up".
Instead of simply saying "wow, okay I really don't agree with those results", and leaving it at that, you go on a crusade to dissassemble, disprove and invalidate the votes; to "prove people wrong". Because you don't like the outcome.
Yes, that is an arrogant and closed-minded attitude.
Now I'm going to explain a few things to you so even you might understand it.
You think that it's completely normal for people to be biased and you act as if it's completely fine.
I have no opinion either way. People *are* biased.
Yes, even you, as you proved time and again on the Archlord forums when you were cheer-leading for that game. Despite your repeated attempts to claim some unbiased high-ground, the selective application of your "objective criteria" made your bias quite clear. I'll happily cite an example if you'd like.
And, ofcourse, it is fine as long as you take these awards with a grain of salt. But you see, a lot of people, myself included, would like to see these awards being given to the developers that really deserve them, and not turn into a fanboy/hater fest that they have turned into now.
Given to the developers that really deserve them? It did go to the most deserving ones.. It went to the ones with the most votes.
Oh, you mean the ones that *you* would have chosen, of course. Of course, all the votes here don't matter because, to you, the right company didn't win.
... and then you act surprised when described as arrogant and closed-minded.
I couldn't care less who wins or loses. The votes speak for themselves. I'm merely pointing out the flaws in your argument.
However, it still stands:
That more people voted for LoTRO in this poll than for any other nominee indicates that it *does* deserve it. That's how polls work. 1+1 = 2.
No matter how you try to break it down, call people fanboys or questioin the the validity of the votes, everyone had the same chance to choose any of the games nominated. More chose LoTRO. That's it. End of discussion.
Because you disagree with the results doesn't mean they're not valid.
As long as people are unable to vote from an objective standpoint, the awards do not live up to their name. Is Mines of Moria the best expansion of 2008? Heck no, Mines of Moria is the expansion that received the most votes after a huge mass of biased people vote to make sure Wrath of the Lich King would not win the award.
So people weren't voting for MoM... They were voting against WoTLK. And even with several games to choose from, they all chose MoM...
To put it another way...
Entertaining your conspiracy theory for a moment, a vote for any of the other 4 nominees would have been a vote against WoTLK, as would have been no vote at all. Correct? Yet, all those people somehow rallied together, coordinated and voted for MoM; enough to give it a 23.3% lead on WoTLK, and take 48.3% of the votes overall.
And this doesn't seem at all far-fetched to you.
Yeah, that's lucid.
The government called... They need their black helicopters back.
It's like asking the fans of a sports team which team is the best. Are they going to give an objective, well educated response? Heck no, they are going to pick the team they cheer for which is probably because they were born in a certain state/town.
Now you're using flawed analogies to support an equally flawed argument. You're getting pretty desperate.I know plenty of sports fans who readily acknowledge their team is having a horrible season, or isn't playing well or, certainly, isn't the "best team". I also know fans who do not choose a team simply because it's their "home town". Got any more lame generalizations to toss around?
Keep trying to find new ways to claim that the votes are not valid. The plain-as-day reality remains the same:
Everyone had the same opportunity to vote for any of the games nominated. This wasn't a "controlled" or "rigged" vote. There were no hanging or dimpled chads that could be judged subjectively for a preferred candidate. No one was turned away from the voting booths. It was a very definitive choice that people made.
LoTRO won because given the choices, more felt MoM most deserved it.
Again, 1+1 = 2.
The result is that the opinion becomes completely meaningless.
To you they are, because you don't like who won.
Also, I am well within my right to criticize the results and other peoples opinion, unless an admit tells me to stop.
Are you trying to put words in my mouth?
I never said you didn't have a right to criticize.
You absolutely do.
You also have a right to look ridiculous doing it.
You're 2 for 2. Not bad.
the mmorpg.com awards are no different. I'd love awards based on quality, but with the prejudice against WoW, it's simply not going to happen.
Yes, GL, you've got it all figured out. You've uncovered the conspiracy and proven that it had nothing to do with MoM simply getting more votes.
You know what's funny. You talk about people's votes not being "well educated" or "invalid" to dismantle the results of a poll. Yet, here you are conjuring up these wild and, frankly, paranoid theories that you can't prove as "well educated" nor "valid", either. Is that slowing you down? Not at all. Just like back in the Archlord forums, somehow your own criteria never applies to yourself or those who agree with you.
Let's just strip away the nonsense and sum it up like this:
MoM shouldn't have won in your opinion. It did. You're bitter.
It's okay. I have more sugar if you need it.
Perhaps you should try that "grain of salt" thing you mentioned earlier.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I am a WAR fanboy and voted for Mines of Moria so congratulations Turbine!
wotlk players dont have time to vote, cos theyr enjoing the game.
i do not approve this fake vote...
lol
The votes are no more or less legit than they'd be if WoTLK or any of the other expansions won.
Plenty of WoW players come here and post on these forums, and they all had the opportunity to vote. Some did, but not enough. MoM won.
Maybe GL will share some of his sugar with you.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
It's undeniable that the quality isn't there because from an objective point of view, WOTLK scores higher than MoM and yet Lotro wins with a landslide victory here.
What the hell do reviews have to do with quality? Nothing, LOTRO:MoM is a quality product. Pure and simple, in fact Turbine has shown time and time again with LOTRO they know what they are doing, and regularly exceed player expectations in terms of technical execution, timeliness, completeness and polish. Turbine added 4 entire zones and about just as many features FOR FREE in its first year of operation. Very little downtime, and the content was GOOD.
It doesn't matter what people post here, because I don't believe for a moment that even half of the people who voted here did so with an objective and educated mindset. For that, you need to look no further than yourself.
" they also have 25 man raids, something blizzard has recently decided to mimic"
Blizzard decided to mimic? what? WoW already had a 20 man raid dungeon about 2 years before Lotro was even released.
I was referring to MAX, as in LOTRO knows its player base, its target, and the current trend of MMO players and shipped with 25 man raids as MAX, because they know the core player base does not have time for 40 man raids.
In my opinion, it is very clear why people have voted for Lotro. Because Blizzard is the big bad bully, and Turbine is this cute little company offering an alternative to WoW.
Your opinion is incorrect, as evidenced by the reasoning people here have posted. Including "Professional critics". You are just mad your game of the moment did not win. Pure and simple. Wow is a fine game in its self, but its the fast food of MMO's, Turbine is a small boutique offering a catered experience, and they do it WELL.
"Lotro is not about the endgame, it's about the journey to it!" Unfortunately Lotro's quest are, just like WoW, little more than "Go kill XX" or "Go find XX" with a storyline mission thrown in every now and then to keep the story moving, only difference being that WoW has a lot more content untill you reach the cap level. The endgame in Lotro is nowhere near that of WoW's, so the correct translation of the phrase "It's not about the endgame" would be "The endgame sucks".
You’re comparing a game that has a completely different focus to another, completely different focus. This is why you’re failing to understand. They are two different games, with two different (but overlapping) player bases. You are also comparing a 4 year old game to a 2 year old one. LOTRO is about story, not ding/loot/gratz/catassing/poosticking. To say that LOTRO's quests are just like wows shows you have NO idea what you are talking about, while some of them are fillers...the comparison is laughable. The quility of the quests in LOTRO far surpasses anything in Wow.... Perhaps you should read the quests and story instead of scrolling down to the bottom and accepting. You have been conditioned by Wow to play mindlessly it seems.
People will write entire essays to write what they don't like about WoW's PVP system but when Lotro's monster play comes up, it usually goes "It sucks, but it's not the focus of the game" as if that is a valid excuse for it being the way it is.
Well, IT ISN'T THE FOCUSE OF THE GAME. That’s like saying, that tank sucks, because it can't fly, my airplane is better. However, Monster play is an ingenious way to have PvP at all with out breaking the LORE of the game....this isn’t something turbine is just making up you know. Give credit where credit is due. Monster play is quite fun, and i personally find it much more compelling to participate in than Wows unbalanced bullshit PvP. Have fun with your Twink, because you are so skilled.
I do not think you understand who and what turbine is, how they have influenced, and pioneered a good portion of this industry. I also do not think you have one single "objectionable" view on this subject at all.
The bias of your entire argument is this. Your game did not win, you cant understand why, because it has 11 million people playing it. So it must be good.
LOTRO's quests, and instances are some of the best in the current market, the game is self is constantly showing how turbine is exceptional at what they do, and has a solid finger on the pulse of its community, and the current working of the MMO player base. From the engine, to the updates, to the absolute quality of the game its self, they have shown time and time again that LOTRO is perhaps one of the most refined MMO experiences ever created.
As a new player, if you send me your e-mail, ill send you a trail, so you can finally play the game you talk so much crap about.
Yes, even "Professional critics" say the same thing....
To each his own.
This expansion was fantastic, and flexes turbines technical skill. Get over it.
Before you even say it, i am a fan of all games. However, ignoring what makes LOTRO great is just like ignoring what makes Wow great. This isn’t highlander, there doesn’t need to be only one.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
And its interesting how different the opinions of unbiased and profesional reviewers can be.
This is the list of 3 PC editors of IGN.com top 10 favourite games of the year!
http://pc.ign.com/articles/943/943930p1.html
Guess what?
One of them doesnt have either MoM or Wotlk on his list
One of them have Mines of Moria as #4 but no Wotlk in his top 10
and one them have Wrath of the lich king as #5 but no MoM in his top 10
So what does that tell us? That some think that MoM was better and some think that Wotlk was better and on MMORPG.com the readers voted for Mines of Moria...
If WoW = The Beatles
and WAR = Led Zeppelin
Then LotrO = Pink Floyd
End of the year awards. Great. Yet another thing for players of different games to fight and argue over with >.<
Before you even say it, i am a fan of all games. However, ignoring what makes LOTRO great is just like ignoring what makes Wow great. This isn’t highlander, there doesn’t need to be only one.
No disagreement with you responses, MrBloodworth... I agree pretty much 100%, having played both games pretty extensively. When you get past the "surface" stuff, and the standard MMO fare that all MMOs have in common, LoTRO does stand apart on its own as a unique game.
My own sister, who's a raving WoW fan (and thinks I'm nuts for not playing it), subbed to LoTRO for a bit and acknokwledged it; I think she explained it best:
"The controls and the basic things like getting quests and talking to NPCs is similar. Other than that it's a very different game".
Turbine have also been given much praise and accolades, by industry and players alike, since the game's launch at their dedication to regular content updates for no added cost, and an overall sound and stable game.
That said, I do have a question... I'm seeing these terms, catassing and, for the first time in your post, poosticking... What do they mean?
Thanks
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Before you even say it, i am a fan of all games. However, ignoring what makes LOTRO great is just like ignoring what makes Wow great. This isn’t highlander, there doesn’t need to be only one.
No disagreement with you responses, MrBloodworth... I agree pretty much 100%, having played both games pretty extensively. When you get past the "surface" stuff, and the standard MMO fare that all MMOs have in common, LoTRO does stand apart on its own as a unique game.
My own sister, who's a raving WoW fan (and thinks I'm nuts for not playing it), subbed to LoTRO for a bit and acknokwledged it; I think she explained it best:
"The controls and the basic things like getting quests and talking to NPCs is similar. Other than that it's a very different game".
Turbine have also been given much praise and accolades, by industry and players alike, since the game's launch at their dedication to regular content updates for no added cost, and an overall sound and stable game.
That said, I do have a question... I'm seeing these terms, catassing and, for the first time in your post, poosticking... What do they mean?
Thanks
catass (n) - One who plays plays an MMO for extreme lengths of time (such as days, weeks, or months of near-uninterrupted play). This may come at the expense of hygiene, social interaction, and nutrition. Originated with the article "The Surreal World" by Hayes Reed where he described an Ultima Online obsessed friend's apartment as, "A den of cat ass and murdered time."
catass (v) - The act of playing an MMO (or any game) for an extreme length of time, to the point that such behavior is easily identified.
Poopsock (n) A person who has become so addicted to their game of choice, that they refuse to leave their computer for extended periods of time and use any nearby container to defecate in, e.g. a sock.
I heard Brian played WoW for 18 hours yesterday, what a poopsock!
Poopsock (v) Playing a game (particularly an MMO) for a very long, uninterrupted session. See above.
Did you hear that Hello Kitty Online is coming out next week? I'm gonna poopsock that mother&$%@!*.
Poopstick (n) Replace sock, with stick.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Before you even say it, i am a fan of all games. However, ignoring what makes LOTRO great is just like ignoring what makes Wow great. This isn’t highlander, there doesn’t need to be only one.
No disagreement with you responses, MrBloodworth... I agree pretty much 100%, having played both games pretty extensively. When you get past the "surface" stuff, and the standard MMO fare that all MMOs have in common, LoTRO does stand apart on its own as a unique game.
My own sister, who's a raving WoW fan (and thinks I'm nuts for not playing it), subbed to LoTRO for a bit and acknokwledged it; I think she explained it best:
"The controls and the basic things like getting quests and talking to NPCs is similar. Other than that it's a very different game".
Turbine have also been given much praise and accolades, by industry and players alike, since the game's launch at their dedication to regular content updates for no added cost, and an overall sound and stable game.
That said, I do have a question... I'm seeing these terms, catassing and, for the first time in your post, poosticking... What do they mean?
Thanks
catass (n) - One who plays plays an MMO for extreme lengths of time (such as days, weeks, or months of near-uninterrupted play). This may come at the expense of hygiene, social interaction, and nutrition. Originated with the article "The Surreal World" by Hayes Reed where he described an Ultima Online obsessed friend's apartment as, "A den of cat ass and murdered time."
catass (v) - The act of playing an MMO (or any game) for an extreme length of time, to the point that such behavior is easily identified.
Poopsock (n) A person who has become so addicted to their game of choice, that they refuse to leave their computer for extended periods of time and use any nearby container to defecate in, e.g. a sock.
I heard Brian played WoW for 18 hours yesterday, what a poopsock!
Poopsock (v) Playing a game (particularly an MMO) for a very long, uninterrupted session. See above.
Did you hear that Hello Kitty Online is coming out next week? I'm gonna poopsock that mother&$%@!*.
Poopstick (n) Replace sock, with stick.
lol awesome.
Luckily I don't fit any of those categories :-p
Thanks
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Your welcome.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
here i have a hunch for results... What if the wow players were to atracted to the game, and nver got on any other site cuz there to busy enjoying or not enjoying just wasting there life?...
nah idk. i like turbine, i liked lotro. just as i saw i did not have enough time at that point to keep playing lotro, i never tried expansion, but i believe turbine would have done a fine job. im no wow boy, im no Lotro boy either. i just play a game i see fit to my style, time, and quality.
I think LOTRO is an alright MMO, nothing spectacular. The issue I have currently is they are trying to mimic WoW too much and I dislike the direction WoW took their game. I left LOTRO because of class balance issues they have caused in the expansion. They have introduced trait lines for one that mimic WoWs talent tree system providing players ways to diverge away from their role. I see this as blurring class roles as they did in WoW and ruined WoW.
I liked WoW in the beginning when we had defined class roles. Now classes are all dps with a little flare between them. In LOTRO it seems they are aiming for that same broken system. They recently changed class descriptions of game roles for some of their classes ... which you should not do midgame on any game. Burglars are hardly primary debuffers any more, which in the moria manual doesn't even claim they are anymore. Champions the aoe dps class is main tanking more than any class at the moment. Guardians are having the same issues Warriors were having in WoW with agro issues and not being wanted after the devs decided to try to go down the same road WoW has. What is funny is they are having the same issues WoW did as they do it.
LOTRO has become about DPSing dungeons instead of strong group strategy of the original. The way the people on this forum make the game sound is as if it was the perfect MMO. I just want to say, LOTRO is an alright MMO, it has problems like any other MMO. They introduced a lot of balance issues in the expansion and threw class roles in a loop a bit. The content in the dungeon is a little too easy. The dungeon monsters hit for too little to the point no one cares if they pull agro, it will not cause a light armor wearers death if they did anyhow.
I dislike it when MMOs drastically restructure classes and there roles mid game after you chose your character for the reasons you did. I did not like it in WoW and I did not like it in LOTRO. No bias here, I currently do not play either. I let my subscription end recently after doing all the content and coming to the realization that indeed LOTRO is very similar in WoW in the fact they are going away from solid class roles. Still it is an okay casual game, not much to do in the game but it is very solo friendly and doesn't require much time to accomplish anything.
Overall I would probably give it a 8.5. It is one of the better MMOs out right now if that tells you anything.
Or maybe we were just too busy having fun to come here and vote in your stupid poll.
Wait, I mean being giant tools and racing to level 80 so we don't miss out on any DKP.
einexile the meek
Vacuos, Winterlong, Vaciante, Eicosapenta
Atlantean, Tyranny, Malton