Yes, I was banned

LinnaLinna NijmegenMember Posts: 387

I've never made a secret of it. My crime? They called it cross-teaming. The real story is different.

My previous MMO not only allowed having characters in all factions (SWG, COH), they positively encouraged it. And since I always liked seeing how both sides lived, I used that opportunity. When there was a discussion in the Beta for PotBS about whether or not it would be allowed, devs strongly came out saying they didn't see a problem with it. Beltpouch posted links to the relevant articles in the beta archives in this epic thread:

http://www.burningsea.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33865

What made me decide to make both a Spanish and a French toon? Two main reasons:

1) - Exchanging goods in the game was a pain, even between your own alts. No item mailing, no shared warehouse. Having a second toon would make that a lot easier, for all of the guild. She could serve as the guild transfer and storage point, permanently stationed in Havana. But having two toons in the same nation would be dull. I would have loved to take the other pirate, but then reason 2 came in.

2) -  I chose Spain for the guild, because it had a starter port layout that was friendlier to our PVE people, and joining the biggest nation just felt too zerg. We already knew in beta however that the British would have the same population as France and Spain combined. France and Spain would be natural allies. Making sure there were diplomatic channels from the start would serve us both in the end

As soon as my Frenchie could communicate in nation chat, I made very sure to tell everyone what she was. I told them not to tell her secrets, not to give me vent or forum access. I didn't want to betray trusts, and they knew my loyalty was completely with Spain.  It became a game, where I bantered with the French from the Spanish point of view, and they called me Sita the Spanish pig-dog, and tried to feed me misinformation.

Many things happened, but long story short, I had a long, involved history with the French nation, and was in a weird way as much a part of that community as I was of the Spanish. I never sabotaged them or griefed them, never even spied on them much. The worst thing I did was very rarely warn someone a gank was waiting for them at such-and-such port. I even levelled up a NO to help them when their nation collapsed at one point, to help them defend against the British.

Then FLS introduced insurance, and with it some horrible ways to exploit dual nationalities. These had been pointed out before they went live, but the warnings were ignored. Once in live, they DID happen. And in a kneejerk reaction, FLS decided to change the TOS, and make having two nationalities on the same server bannable. I was devastated. Spain was already in a bad shape at that time, and the fact I could also play alongside French friends was one of the few things that kept me going in trying to keep Spain together. I petitioned FLS to grandfather in my accounts, since I was provably not guilty of any wrongdoing. They replied I could transfer one of them off the server, but they would not allow one person to have accounts in two nations. My husband and I cancelled all accounts.

In a last ditch attempt, since having 2 nationalities in the same household was NOT forbidden, we asked how about I transfer ownership of my French account to my husband, and he transfer ownership of his Spanish account to me. That way I would own all Spanish accounts, he would own a French account, and we could go on, business as usual, without breaking the new rule. Trading between the accounts would go on the same as before (and what the hell is the difference whether I trade between a french and spanish toon, or my husband is behind the keyboard of one of them??). And no, nothing fishy in the trading either. Sita had oak in Port St Joe, wine in Tampa, some odds and ends, which I could have gotten on a Spanish account as easily - in the case of oak even easier.

The day before the cancellation went into effect, I got a reply from Aether that they were satisfied that this solution would be within the rules, and that they were glad we found a way to make it work. So we uncancelled. Aether said in a brief follow-up that he had instructed the CSR staff that he'd had my account flagged, so that if anything ever came up, he would be contacted to straighten it out.

Two months or three months later, Spain was slowly recovering, France was near death. We were two cripples holding each other up. One day a guildmate wanted to PVP scuttle a ship. I had a brand new sleek mordaunt on my French NO, that I wanted to test in actual combat. So we flagged and had at it. I won the fight, and then we managed to find another frenchie who wanted to try. 

Keep in mind that at that point, PVP scuttling had become the norm. Deleting would be boring. I burned 3 ships trying to help a British player PVP scuttle his Valiant the week before: these were real fights.

One Spanish player who had jumped into our instance on a fallback reported us for lord-knows-what. And next thing I know, I get a letter from Aether saying that I had violated the deal made when he grandfathered in my accounts (the word GRANDFATHERED was literally in that mail. Look it up. It means the OLD ruleset applies to you, not the new one). I was confused, sent him a reply that no rules were broken, and that this was a genuine fight between two people, not one of my accounts farming my other account. His reply was that I was guilty of cross-teaming, that the decision was final, and that my choices were deleting my French toons, or transferring them to another server. Which simply wasn't an option: I'd never play those toons again, I'd lose all the work that had gone into levelling them, and there really wasn't a point in making yet another Spanish toon. Apart from that I was furious about the broken promises. So I replied that in that case, I'd be cancelling.

Three days before the accounts expired, I suddenly couldn't access the forums. The message said I was under a one week forum ban. One of my toons was on line, and I smelled a rat, so I transferred everything I could off of her to a friend and tried to log in my main. And got the message I had been banned from the game.

And no, it was not just one of my accounts. They banned 3 Spanish accounts, including the one originally paid for by my husband, and the French account, 4 accounts in all. They didn't even bother to check the account status. We never got a mail explaining the ban. I still don't know why the forum ban happened, as I am not exactly a notorious flamer.

Two weeks before this I'd been corresponding with Rusty about the state of Rackham Spain

Two weeks before this, I'd been helping out on Test, and was told how much my work with Rackham Spain was appreciated by FLS staff.

Did I expect special treatment? Maybe a little, as long as I stayed within the rules, and steered clear of exploits.

 

My feelings about the entire mess are a complicated jumble. I am still both sad and outraged. What they did amounts to theft. They sold me multiple copies of the game under one set of rules, and then changed the rules in such a way that it became illegal to play the way I and many others did. And by far most of us 'multinationals' never even thought of exploiting. The worst thing is that I KNOW from my professional background that it is, indeed, very possible to detect exploiters by data mining the server side databases. A shipbuilder ID on each ship built would soon show if one shipbuilder lost all their ships to pirate captures. A program counting MOV earned over time by players could easily show abberations, where someone got abnormal amounts of MOV in too short a time. In both cases, further investigation would soon out the real exploiters.

 

All this aside, this doesn't mean I go running around spreading blatant lies about the game. I don't initiate flame posts either. But I WILL point out the many ways in which FLS made a mess of things, and are still making a mess of things.

And I will never forget one of Misha's replies about the situation with my Frenchie, about how I could always use MSN to chat with my French friends even if my toon was on another server. Nothing ever made it more clear that they have no idea how gamer communities work.

Linna

PS: they apparently never found out about my pirate account, bought 2 weeks before the rules changed (I wanted to play alongside some pirate enemy/friends), and cancelled before its free month was ever up, because I DID try to stay within the rules. But at this point, even a formal appology and restitution would not make me play again. My guild left for other games, my nation and server are both broken, there is nothing left.

 

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Comments

  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Pittsville, VAMember UncommonPosts: 5,439

    So that entire wall of text boils down to you were banned and you really don't know why.

    "We have met the enemy and he is us." ~Pogo Possum. 

  • Deliriumz1Deliriumz1 HitchinMember Posts: 48

    Sorry to hear that ;< , even though it does sound as u were walking really close to the edge of some rules, it sounds that you have always been pretty honest about it, so not even getting a reason why you got banned is just stupid tbh .

    image/img_achievements/ed585160f30432c2f840a58f396656f2.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

  • LinnaLinna NijmegenMember Posts: 387
    Originally posted by Deliriumz1


    Sorry to hear that ;< , even though it does sound as u were walking really close to the edge of some rules, it sounds that you have always been pretty honest about it, so not even getting a reason why you got banned is just stupid tbh .



     

    Presumably because I refused to delete or transfer toons, but they could at least have sent a final e-mail, especially to my husband, who was, after all, just trying to help find a way out of the mess.

    As to breaking the rules: well, the problem is, the rules when I bought the game said it was OK to play that way. Even trading first rate durability  to pirates - something I never did - was OK, according to a dev post in Beta, since the same amount of work would go into building it. This system only became problematic when they introduced insurance, and the pirate with the national account would get both the ship AND their money back.

    I know that some nationals had pirate accounts purely to avoid the increased taxes after port captures. Which is another thing the devs said was OK in beta.  And the fact those players did that only indicates to me that the port capture system was indeed too harsh for most of the non-hardcore. From reactions I've seen in game - varying from logging out to cancelling till the port was back in our hands - they would have done better making ALL captures 3-day only, like pirate ports. This, added to giving the pirates equal points for captures, would have finally made the pirates fully part of RvR, and it would have made losing ports less punishing for nationals.

    Linna

  • spinach8puffspinach8puff Alexandria, VAMember CommonPosts: 864
    Originally posted by Linna


    I've never made a secret of it. My crime? They called it cross-teaming. The real story is different...

     

    My guess would be you were banned from their forums because they didn't want to see a post like this pop up there. A post like this would cause complications, ultimately not end up well, and nothing would be solved.

    As for you being banned there's only one thing I didn't understand. What exactly is cross-teaming? It sounds like the WoW version of an alliance friend killing a horde friend repeatedly for honor.

  • LinnaLinna NijmegenMember Posts: 387
    Originally posted by zymurgeist


    So that entire wall of text boils down to you were banned and you really don't know why.



     

    Pretty much. From our long, long correspondence, I cannot believe that FLS didn't realise that I would continue to play the French account alongside the Spanish one. So no, I really don't understand what happened there in the end.

    I still have trouble wrapping my mind around the fact that it is OK for two friends to give stuff to each other while one is French and the other is Spanish, but that it's now illegal to do so if both the accounts are owned by the same person or even family (which is what the last posts on the topic seem to indicate).

    Linna

  • RedwoodSapRedwoodSap Fenwick Island, DEMember Posts: 1,235
    Originally posted by spinach8puff

    Originally posted by Linna


    I've never made a secret of it. My crime? They called it cross-teaming. The real story is different...

     

    My guess would be you were banned from their forums because they didn't want to see a post like this pop up there. A post like this would cause complications, ultimately not end up well, and nothing would be solved.

    As for you being banned there's only one thing I didn't understand. What exactly is cross-teaming? It sounds like the WoW version of an alliance friend killing a horde friend repeatedly for honor.

    Pre-banning in order to save face is a despicable concept.

    Changing the rules after someone had paid for the product and more importantly, invested time in the product, amounts to bait and switch fraud.

    PotBS is a failure because they released a game no one liked and are now trying to salvage it by changing everything afterwards. Pre-release testing and feedback were completely ignored with this product.

     

    image

  • Deliriumz1Deliriumz1 HitchinMember Posts: 48
    Originally posted by Linna

    Originally posted by Deliriumz1


    Sorry to hear that ;< , even though it does sound as u were walking really close to the edge of some rules, it sounds that you have always been pretty honest about it, so not even getting a reason why you got banned is just stupid tbh .

    As to breaking the rules: well, the problem is, the rules when I bought the game said it was OK to play that way. Even trading first rate durability  to pirates - something I never did - was OK, according to a dev post in Beta, since the same amount of work would go into building it. This system only became problematic when they introduced insurance, and the pirate with the national account would get both the ship AND their money back.

     

    I do want to make a small remark on this part of ur reply. When entering an mmo you do agree in the contract that they may change the rules during the existance of the game, and even though I do understand where you are coming from, this is something that you can not really hold against the developers since an mmo is always bound to change some of their rules in the future.

    image/img_achievements/ed585160f30432c2f840a58f396656f2.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

  • LinnaLinna NijmegenMember Posts: 387
    Originally posted by spinach8puff

    Originally posted by Linna


    I've never made a secret of it. My crime? They called it cross-teaming. The real story is different...

     

    My guess would be you were banned from their forums because they didn't want to see a post like this pop up there. A post like this would cause complications, ultimately not end up well, and nothing would be solved.

    As for you being banned there's only one thing I didn't understand. What exactly is cross-teaming? It sounds like the WoW version of an alliance friend killing a horde friend repeatedly for honor.



     

    Well, this is what Aether originally posted in June 2008:

    __________________________________________

    Cross Teaming

    Many of you have asked us our policy relating to people using two accounts to "cross-team", which is when one player uses two different accounts to play characters of different nations on the same server. As you are aware, game mechanics are such that you are not allowed to play two characters of opposing nations on a single account.

    In keeping with that mechanic, we will be actively enforcing that rule to apply to individuals using two accounts to sidestep that limitation.

    While players are welcome to have as many accounts as they wish, people with multiple accounts are not allowed to have characters of differing nations on the same server. If a player is found in violation of this policy, they will be forced to either move or delete the character in violation. Repeat offenders will be subject to further disciplinary action, up to and including permanent suspension of their Pirates of the Burning Sea accounts.

     

    _________________________________________

    There are other games where it's illegal to have characters on both sides, like Warhammer, mostly because it makes farming the other account for pvp status points easy. But if you put in a rule like that after the game has been live for 6 months, that rule is not only immoral, it's also a form of consumer fraud.

    In case of PotBS, it's a bit different. You don't get PVP rank by killing enemies, you just loot their ship. The only real gain to be made was from insurance fraud ( insurance being a post-launch addition to the game) and Mark of Victory farming (something done as easily or easier between two friends on different nations as it is for one person owning two accounts).

    Linna

  • spinach8puffspinach8puff Alexandria, VAMember CommonPosts: 864

    Taking what you say at face vaule I can understand why you are upset. It sounds like they expected you and your husband to have different IPs which is just stupid. It is also dumb they didn't make that rule before servers went live. I can't think of a better word to use besides unprofessional. Unfortunately, like Deliriumz1 said, it is their game and they can change whatever they want whenever they want.

  • RedwoodSapRedwoodSap Fenwick Island, DEMember Posts: 1,235
    Originally posted by Linna
    _________________________________________
    There are other games where it's illegal to have characters on both sides, like Warhammer, mostly because it makes farming the other account for pvp status points easy. But if you put in a rule like that after the game has been live for 6 months, that rule is not only immoral, it's also a form of consumer fraud.
    In case of PotBS, it's a bit different. You don't get PVP rank by killing enemies, you just loot their ship. The only real gain to be made was from insurance fraud ( insurance being a post-launch addition to the game) and Mark of Victory farming (something done as easily or easier between two friends on different nations as it is for one person owning two accounts).
    Linna

    It's clear that the FLS developers have no concept about proper game design, since all of these types of cross teaming functions have to be sorted out, and mechanics put in place in advance, to prevent them. We all know how easy it is for people to play two accounts at once, and any developer who doesn't design features and mechanics with that in mind to prevent exploitations is clueless.

    image

  • LinnaLinna NijmegenMember Posts: 387
    Originally posted by Deliriumz1

    Originally posted by Linna

    Originally posted by Deliriumz1


    Sorry to hear that ;< , even though it does sound as u were walking really close to the edge of some rules, it sounds that you have always been pretty honest about it, so not even getting a reason why you got banned is just stupid tbh .

    As to breaking the rules: well, the problem is, the rules when I bought the game said it was OK to play that way. Even trading first rate durability  to pirates - something I never did - was OK, according to a dev post in Beta, since the same amount of work would go into building it. This system only became problematic when they introduced insurance, and the pirate with the national account would get both the ship AND their money back.

     

    I do want to make a small remark on this part of ur reply. When entering an mmo you do agree in the contract that they may change the rules during the existance of the game, and even though I do understand where you are coming from, this is something that you can not really hold against the developers since an mmo is always bound to change some of their rules in the future.



     

    Actually, there is such a thing as illegal terms of sale. The fact that companies put something like that in the TOS doesn't mean it holds up in a court. It's like selling a 3 year car lease contract for a Ferari, but halfway through saying 'sorry, we're out of ferrari's, so we've changed the contract, see, the small print allows it. You're now driving a ford'.

    A real life example of illegal TOS I can mention is this big scandinavian cheap furniture store, Ikea. In the conditions of sale, they used to have this line saying that if the product you bought turned out to infringe any copyrights (read: we've stolen the design and someone called us on it), the customer would be liable in court, not the company. Putting this type of condition in the TOS is illegal, and invalidates the entire rest of the TOS.

    Adapting the rules is one thing. Adapting them in such a way that the product cannot be used for its original purpose is another.

    Linna

  • Deliriumz1Deliriumz1 HitchinMember Posts: 48
    Originally posted by Linna

    Originally posted by Deliriumz1

    Originally posted by Linna

    Originally posted by Deliriumz1


    Sorry to hear that ;< , even though it does sound as u were walking really close to the edge of some rules, it sounds that you have always been pretty honest about it, so not even getting a reason why you got banned is just stupid tbh .

    As to breaking the rules: well, the problem is, the rules when I bought the game said it was OK to play that way. Even trading first rate durability  to pirates - something I never did - was OK, according to a dev post in Beta, since the same amount of work would go into building it. This system only became problematic when they introduced insurance, and the pirate with the national account would get both the ship AND their money back.

     

    I do want to make a small remark on this part of ur reply. When entering an mmo you do agree in the contract that they may change the rules during the existance of the game, and even though I do understand where you are coming from, this is something that you can not really hold against the developers since an mmo is always bound to change some of their rules in the future.



     

    Actually, there is such a thing as illegal terms of sale. The fact that companies put something like that in the TOS doesn't mean it holds up in a court. It's like selling a 3 year car lease contract for a Ferari, but halfway through saying 'sorry, we're out of ferrari's, so we've changed the contract, see, the small print allows it'.

    A real life example of illegal TOS I can mention is this big scandinavian cheap furniture store, Ikea. In the conditions of sale, they used to have this line saying that if the product you bought turned out to infringe any copyrights (read: we've stolen the design and someone called us on it), the customer would be liable in court, not the company. Putting this type of condition in the TOS is illegal, and invalidates the entire rest of the TOS.

    Adapting the rules is one thing. Adapting them in such a way that the product cannot be used for its original purpose is another.

    Linna

     

    Didn't look at it like that.

    Touché :P.

    image/img_achievements/ed585160f30432c2f840a58f396656f2.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

  • spinach8puffspinach8puff Alexandria, VAMember CommonPosts: 864
    Originally posted by Linna 
    Actually, there is such a thing as illegal terms of sale...

     

    You seem to know your legal stuff so with that all being said what do you plan to do about it? What were your hopes of this post?

  • sanders01sanders01 Lolwut?, ALMember Posts: 1,357

     Didn't you get banned like, months ago? :/ I remeber this quite well happening to you or another person that's name started with a L. Lesson: Don't Multi-nation.

    Currently restarting World of Warcraft :/

  • spinach8puffspinach8puff Alexandria, VAMember CommonPosts: 864
    Originally posted by sanders01


     Didn't you get banned like, months ago? :/ I remeber this quite well happening to you or another person that's name started with a L. Lesson: Don't Multi-nation.

     

    I normally don't check, but you are quite correct. The thread was called Grief back on 10/09/08, was the only other thread they made, and while the name of the game is not mentioned everything mentioned there comes up here. It seems they are still upset after two and a half months.

  • LinnaLinna NijmegenMember Posts: 387
    Originally posted by spinach8puff

    Originally posted by Linna 
    Actually, there is such a thing as illegal terms of sale...

     

    You seem to know your legal stuff so with that all being said what do you plan to do about it? What were your hopes of this post?



     

    Hopes? None. But this Havoj guy put the fact of my banning out there, so I thought I'd best clear up the circumstances.

    And yes, I know my legal stuff. And if I had the money, I'd definitely do something about it, as a matter of principle. But legal fees are expensive, and no cure-no pay doesn't exist here. So once again a company gets away with it.

    Linna

  • LinnaLinna NijmegenMember Posts: 387
    Originally posted by spinach8puff

    Originally posted by sanders01


     Didn't you get banned like, months ago? :/ I remeber this quite well happening to you or another person that's name started with a L. Lesson: Don't Multi-nation.

     

    I normally don't check, but you are quite correct. The thread was called Grief back on 10/09/08, was the only other thread they made, and while the name of the game is not mentioned everything mentioned there comes up here. It seems they are still upset after two and a half months.



     

    It's hard to see people come back from other games, look for us, and not finding us. It's hard to know that the fact we're not there anymore ruined other players' enjoyment in the game to the extent they stopped playing too. And it's hard to see the server get less and less populated with every month, after trying so hard to get it back on its feet.

    The ties that bind guilds and player communities in general can be very ephemeral. Still, the connection is real, the people are real, and being cut out this way is painful.

    Linna

  • DracusDracus The Bay Area, CAMember Posts: 1,449

    What The Heck?  Cross Teaming is a bannable offense?

    Sorry to read of that Linna.

    I can understand the point behind it, to balance out sides and all (everyone wants to be on the winning side), but enforcing it is not practical.  Multiple entities (people) can exist on one computer, one IP address, and even on one billing account or credit card (just as mentioned with Husband and Wife...  heck, could be a family of four, or two friends or college roommates).  There is no sure fire way to know when this form of Cross-Teaming is occurring or not.  Actually the design should be set as such to expect such a thing of occurring and the means to deal with it.

    I imagine there are people doing it now, being as covert as possible.

    A single person can setup multiple accounts using different billing accounts to appear as legitiment multiple entities.  If even going into more in depth, could use IP relying.

    And mentioned before, using MSN, or any other 3rd Party IM or VoIP system to get around faction restrictions on communications.

    Tightening down the security is within a game, means that people will use more 3rd party applications.



    This goes against a business for making profit.  Of course a business would like for a person to be paying for more than one account.  That equates to one customer paying the price of multiple customers, with only the support cost of one customer.



    I know, I'm preacing to the choir.

    I just had to post something as I found this to be shocking.  Really.

    I was naive to think that multi-accounts were allowed and there was some form of game mechanism in play, maybe like some kind of incentives.

    And that is why...

    Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.

  • olddaddyolddaddy Brighton, MIMember Posts: 3,356

    The really sad thing is that FLS encouraged players to have multiple accounts in multiple nations on the same server, sold the boxes and collected the fees willingly for each of these accounts.

    The players really didn't care. Pretty much everyone assumed that the other nations had infiltrated guilds and knew of plans as quickly as the guilds did. It made some interesting times.

    For example, the Spanish may decide to flip New Orleans on Tuesday night, so the French, instead of defending new Orleans, head out to the Antilles to flip a Spanish port and put the Spanish capital in the red. Then the Pirates jump in one way or another. The net effect is we get several upcoming port battles, which everyone wanted.

    It added to the forum warfare, which added to the fun.

    I never felt it was cheating. I laughed when we got had just as hard as when the Spanish got had.

    It was all done in fun.

    Then FLS banned the fun. 

     

  • mk11232mk11232 alpharetta, GAMember Posts: 217

    Wait what?? This game is still alive with people paying for it?

  • GyrusGyrus Lost City of ZMember UncommonPosts: 2,413
    Originally posted by RedwoodSap


    It's clear that the FLS developers have no concept about proper game design, since all of these types of cross teaming functions have to be sorted out, and mechanics put in place in advance, to prevent them. We all know how easy it is for people to play two accounts at once, and any developer who doesn't design features and mechanics with that in mind to prevent exploitations is clueless.

     

    QFT.

    FLS has repeatedly amazed me (not in a good way) with their complete misunderstanding of MMO players and their psychology and MMO communities and how they work.

    Even today, PotBS is far closer to being a Single Player Game with a Multi-Player element than a MMO.

    IMHO this is a very large part of the problems with PotBS.  They design features they think will be "cool" without looking at the big picture.

    Thank you Linna for a very informative thread.

    Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  • NeodisNeodis St ThomasMember Posts: 14

    Cross-Teaming was something that I never remember being condoned by the devs even in closed beta.  The restriction of have 2 different faction toons on the same account has always been there and I don't think that that restriction was unrealistic. Getting another account to circumvent that limitation is a real fine line and something that I don't think FLS ever encouraged nor wanted.

    Cross-teaming starting causing issues from the very beginning after the game went live so I am not surprised that FLS took this stance. I think Aether was wrong in trying to "grandfather" something in that would never have a chance in h*ll of being able to be verified or enforced. The two nations on the same server thing by the same person was always something that I was never in favor of.

  • LinnaLinna NijmegenMember Posts: 387
    Originally posted by Neodis


    Cross-Teaming was something that I never remember being condoned by the devs even in closed beta.  The restriction of have 2 different faction toons on the same account has always been there and I don't think that that restriction was unrealistic. Getting another account to circumvent that limitation is a real fine line and something that I don't think FLS ever encouraged nor wanted.
    Cross-teaming starting causing issues from the very beginning after the game went live so I am not surprised that FLS took this stance. I think Aether was wrong in trying to "grandfather" something in that would never have a chance in h*ll of being able to be verified or enforced. The two nations on the same server thing by the same person was always something that I was never in favor of.



     

    Really? The following are dev quotes on dual boxing and multiple nationalities, originally assembled by Beltpouch (Jack Simple), who dug stuff about FLS's previous stance on multiple nationalities and doubleboxing out of the beta archives.

    www.burningsea.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33865&page=6

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by isildur

    The truth is, there isn't that much 'stuff' that you'd be able to preserve by having multiple accounts and transferring back and forth. The real measure of success is going to be in your skills (and, through your skills, the ships you're able to command). And that can't be transferred from one character to another.

    http://archive.burningsea.com/forums/showpost.php?p=452475&postcount=77

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by isildur

    We are not intending to prevent people from having multiple accounts. Aside from the logistical problems with trying to figure out who's dual-boxing and who's just got family playing, we don't really want to be in the business of telling people not to pay us money.

    http://archive.burningsea.com/forums/showpost.php?p=578717&postcount=9

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by taelorn

    It doesn't really bother us if someone gets multiple accounts to give SOLs to a Pirate.

    That's a lot of work. Two characters to max level, plus earning an SOL isn't easy. They've invested more time for than SOL than a navy character since they're transferring it over. Then, the pirate is flagged for PvP everywhere in the new SOL. That means they can't safely take the ship out into the Open Sea - it's only good for port battles. And since you've got a lot of regular players earning SOLs on their navies, that means the pirates are still going to be at a lineship disadvantage in the port battle.

    __________________

    Jack Simple - Retired Pirate

    _____________________

    and:

    _____________________

    Original post by Cesshawk 172, same thread

    _________________________________________

    Here's more for you.

    http://archive.burningsea.com/forums/showthread.php?p=409303&highlight=dual+box#post409303

    Quote:

    Executive Producer Paul Cannif(either above, partnered or second to Rusty

    As a game designer, I don't see any issues with this. We designed the game so that 2-boxing doesn't have a big advantage, and certainly not something you need to enjoy the game. The 'spying' issue is about the only place I see problems, but much like real-time communication, there is only so much we can do about this.

    As a game developer, I have no clue if we have legal reasons we'll need to prohibit this activity. So, I can't give you express permission right now to do it or not. We haven't written our final EULA and until we do, there is no EULA to discuss. Having casual chats about the legal stuff is just plain unwise.

    So, wait and see.

    On a personal note the only game I ever felt I HAD to dual-box was DAOC, because a 'buffbot' was so useful even if you didn't have the hardware to run 2 toons in combat. Eventually it seemed like every dungeon had a full fleet of bots in the lobby, but it was nice to be able to guarantee yourself one. It also really helped for moving items, which is not an issue in WOW thanks to the mail system. I'm glad to know that the truly hardcore find uses for multiple accounts in almost any game. It is a testament to human ingenuity

    http://archive.burningsea.com/forums/showthread.php?p=466941&highlight=dual+box#post466941

    Quote:

    Executive Producer, Paul Cannif

    e) Bots as in dual-boxing, or more. Mmm, yeah, I guess people can do that pretty effectively. Again if every merchant has their own doppelganger escort, it changes the game a bit ... but then again, from the point of view of the opposition, it is still a group of two ships. A single player has the disadvantage of possible extra lag and being unable to keep up with two ships but also the advantage of perfect communication. Personally I think that a group of two REAL people with voice chat is a more dangerous foe than a dual-boxer any day.

    http://archive.burningsea.com/forums/showthread.php?p=452547&highlight=dual+box#post452547

    Quote:

    ISILDUR

    And yet, my wife and I both play WoW, and our router makes us appear to have the same IP address, and my CC# pays for both accounts, so we'd be caught in any sort of algorithmic dual-box trap. In fact, we sometimes play on the same computer (obviously not at the same time) so you couldn't even trust the MAC address of the network device.

    Regardless, we're not going to try to block dual-boxers.

    __________________________________________________________

    You will notice the comments on how it doesn't hurt the economy, how the 'spying issue' might be the only real problem, but is pretty much dismissed, and how even trading durability from a national account to a pirate (implying that yes, this is indeed about one person with two nationalities) is not really a problem.

    This is what I had to go by. So tell me again duel nationalities were never allowed. They knew about it being likely to happen, they explicitly chose not to make it part of the EULA.

    My conclusion from the above, and that of other players, was that FLS didn't see a problem, and that the one nationality per account thing was more to make sure it didn't become endemic, and that on top of that it was an economic thing (sell more boxes).

    Whether or not you agree with dual boxing and having multiple nationalities is not the point. The fact that FLS DID come out at the very least very ambivalently about it, and did not explicitly forbid it despite the discussions in beta, puts the responsibility for the results firmly on their shoulders.

    Linna

    (PS: not sure if all the links work anymore. I've had trouble getting into the beta archives)

  • GyrusGyrus Lost City of ZMember UncommonPosts: 2,413
    Originally posted by Neodis


    Cross-Teaming was something that I never remember being condoned by the devs even in closed beta.  The restriction of have 2 different faction toons on the same account has always been there and I don't think that that restriction was unrealistic. Getting another account to circumvent that limitation is a real fine line and something that I don't think FLS ever encouraged nor wanted.
    ....

    Here you go.

    Read and enjoy.



    http://www.burningsea.com/forums/showpost.php?p=415566&postcount=222

    http://www.burningsea.com/forums/showpost.php?p=415974&postcount=237

    Edit: Heh.  Snap.



    That will teach me to go AFK mid way through typing  a post... ;-)

    Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  • NeodisNeodis St ThomasMember Posts: 14
    Originally posted by Linna Quote:__________________________________________________________
     
    Really? The following are dev quotes on dual boxing and multiple nationalities, originally assembled by Beltpouch (Jack Simple), who dug stuff about FLS's previous stance on multiple nationalities and doubleboxing out of the beta archives.
    www.burningsea.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33865&page=6

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Executive Producer Paul Cannif(either above, partnered or second to Rusty

    As a game designer, I don't see any issues with this. We designed the game so that 2-boxing doesn't have a big advantage, and certainly not something you need to enjoy the game. The 'spying' issue is about the only place I see problems, but much like real-time communication, there is only so much we can do about this.
    As a game developer, I have no clue if we have legal reasons we'll need to prohibit this activity. So, I can't give you express permission right now to do it or not. We haven't written our final EULA and until we do, there is no EULA to discuss. Having casual chats about the legal stuff is just plain unwise.
    So, wait and see.


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Some of the other issues that you mention about why all the sudden FLS is coming back to this issue I don't know about. Way before insurance made it into the game I had stopped playing because of how the game was being re-invented after it was live.  Maybe they should have come out more firmly and stated their opinion about cross-teaming but if they didn't have a issue with it then why even have a limitation on one single account having multiple nation toons attached to it ? That is the same core issue in a way.

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