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@Linna

I just saw your post on the PotBS forum.

 

In the other thread, you made all these posts about what a horrible game PotBS is, what a terrible company FLS is and why you left.  You vehemently denied the idea that you might be bitter about some change that took place (or didn't take place that you felt should have). 

 

In none of those posts did you mention that you were banned.  You didn't mention anything about being livid because you had been treated unfairly, but in this PotBS forum post you allude to staff correspondence that didn't protect you from whatever it was you got banned for after all.

 

Care to share the details?  PM me if you like, here or on the PotBS forum if you don't want to talk about it openly.

Comments

  • GyrusGyrus Lost City of ZMember Posts: 2,413 Uncommon

    Is this discussion public or private?

    If it is a private chat - have PMs stopped working?

    If it is public - where's the link to the mentioned thread?

    Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  • sanders01sanders01 Lolwut?, ALMember Posts: 1,357

     I belive she/he got banned for multi-nationing, if they were, it's pretty old news.

    Currently restarting World of Warcraft :/

  • VetarniasVetarnias Somewhere, QCMember Posts: 630 Uncommon

    Might I ask what your aim is with this new thread, Havohej?  Instead of replying in the old thread, you have taken it upon yourself to start a new thread which is very close to an ad hominem attack against Linna, presumably for her pointing out a few things with the game that you don't agree with.

    For the record, I only became aware of Linna's situation with FLS after the fact.  I did not play Spanish and was therefore not part of her entourage in the game, although I did see the particulars of the problems when Linna PMed me a few months ago offering details.  Whether she chooses to do so with you is another matter, since all you seem to want to do is sink her credibility without bothering to offer a rebuttal to her comments about the game.

    As for the Linna/FLS situation, it's not apparently clear to me that she was banned.  From what I saw it was mostly a case of Linna being asked to stop doing what had previously been accepted practice, and that she preferred to quit instead.  From what I remember, it had to do with her husband playing another nation on the same server (Linna, I hope I get that right).  

    Nothing groundbreaking, nor anything you could call exploiting -- and if you were to ask me, both sides were overreacting in this matter.  However, Havohej, your tactics displease me more and more.

    And before you turn your attention to me: I played French on Blackbeard and Rackham and quit in June.


  • Originally posted by Gyrus
    Is this discussion public or private?
    If it is a private chat - have PMs stopped working?
    If it is public - where's the link to the mentioned thread?


    Linna's grandstanding in this thread wasn't private at all. All of the defenses and attacks Linna makes against me were predicated on the idea that he left PotBS and took his guild with him for no other reason than the game sucked. Then I stumble across this...


    Originally posted by Vetarnias
    Might I ask what your aim is with this new thread, Havohej? Instead of replying in the old thread, you have taken it upon yourself to start a new thread which is very close to an ad hominem attack against Linna, presumably for pointing out a few things with the game that you don't agree with.

    See my reply to Gyrus for the reason why this was posted which is not anything having to do with where Linna's opinions about PotBS's systems and gameplay but instead about his BS in the thread linked from about page 13 on.

    As that thread is about what PotBS did or didn't do wrong, questioning Linna about this discrepancy does not belong in that thread and would have been a derail; at the same time, any potential reader who is not familiar with any this business should know that in fact Linna didn't "just leave" due to not liking the game but rather was banned and that his insistence that there is no bitterness toward the game or its developers coloring his opinions may very well be less than true. At risk of derailing that thread, I created this one.


  • Originally posted by Vetarnias
    all you seem to want to do is sink her credibility without bothering to offer a rebuttal to her comments about the game.


    My rebuttals to her comments are all over the thread in question, linked above. Indeed, she and I went back and forth across multiple pages - YOU replied to some of it, please don't play the fool.



    Originally posted by Vetarnias
    As for the Linna/FLS situation, it's not apparently clear to me that she was banned. From what I saw it was mostly a case of Linna being asked to stop doing what had previously been accepted practice, and that she preferred to quit instead. From what I remember, it had to do with her husband playing another nation on the same server (Linna, I hope I get that right).


    They just recently caused a big stink with a devlog about cross-teaming; the stink due to it previously being accepted practice. As to being apparently clear to you that she was banned, or not, it's apparently clear to me that she said she was banned. I asked why, and without offering any guesses or accusations as to the answer.



    Originally posted by Vetarnias
    Nothing groundbreaking, nor anything you could call exploiting -- and if you were to ask me, both sides were overreacting in this matter.


    My opinions regarding cross-teaming in any game like this differ quite a bit from yours, it would seem.



    Originally posted by Vetarnias
    However, Havohej, your tactics displease me more and more.


    Linna's tactics, especially in the light of her having been banned (and not quit, like she insisted), displease me more and more. But she doesn't post for my pleasure... Just like I don't post here for your pleasure.



    Originally posted by Vetarnias
    And before you turn your attention to me: I played French on Blackbeard and Rackham and quit in June.


    Neither asked nor cared...

  • cludinskcludinsk nyc, NYMember Posts: 59

    Linna was a major force on Rackham in retaining people, but, like a lot of us, got tired of the direction in changes to the game. The reason she finally left, was that that she had be promised by people in FLS it was ok to have her french liason characters on the same server as her spanish main for months, even after they changed the rules disallowing crossnation play. then one day they told her she had to choose between characters. this was at a point where there was almost no french or spanish left, and we were basically joined to try and stop the british, who had the majority of the population. She really was the last main spanish guild leader left, and it was one of the death knells of that server.

  • cludinskcludinsk nyc, NYMember Posts: 59
    Originally posted by Havohej


     
    Linna's tactics, especially in the light of her having been banned (and not quit, like she insisted), displease me more and more. But she doesn't post for my pleasure... Just like I don't post here for your pleasure.

     

    she was banned from the forums after already leaving the game.


  • Originally posted by cludinsk
    Originally posted by Havohej
    Linna's tactics, especially in the light of her having been banned (and not quit, like she insisted), displease me more and more. But she doesn't post for my pleasure... Just like I don't post here for your pleasure.

    she was banned from the forums after already leaving the game.

    Click links. She ain't banned from the forum.

    http://www.burningsea.com/forums/showpost.php?p=601371&postcount=4



    Originally posted by cludinsk
    Linna was a major force on Rackham in retaining people, but, like a lot of us, got tired of the direction in changes to the game. The reason she finally left, was that that she had be promised by people in FLS it was ok to have her french liason characters on the same server as her spanish main for months, even after they changed the rules disallowing crossnation play. then one day they told her she had to choose between characters. this was at a point where there was almost no french or spanish left, and we were basically joined to try and stop the british, who had the majority of the population. She really was the last main spanish guild leader left, and it was one of the death knells of that server.


    This sounds more than respectable - noble, even, in a gamer sort of way. If this is what the ban was over, that sounds crappy and it's understandable that a person have some lingering animosity over it. I sure would, and I doubt any of us could honestly say otherwise.

    I'll wait for Linna to clarify, though, if she chooses to. While all these answers have run along a similar vein, there're minor differences but enough so that I would like to hear it from her. I said in the other thread (linked above) that I was (and am) trying very hard to treat her with respect as a gamer (based on the endorsements of others); despite what Vaternius may think. Thus, I want to know the real deal behind all this and for anyone interested in PotBS to be able to take her harsh criticisms of the game in the proper light should the "What did PotBS do wrong" thread be their first exposure to it.


    What I don't want is to see the truth debated by third parties or argue Forum PvP strategies ;) So, I'll check back here tomorrow to see if Linna has chosen to reply here or PM me.

  • cludinskcludinsk nyc, NYMember Posts: 59

    lots of people been banned from the forums and have been able to return. most bans have been temporary, actually.

    the people who were around during beta loved this game, it was the people who had been following this game for years. these are the people who were the most disappointed and most vocal months later after the game finally launched, and most are gone... hence the 11 servers down to basically 1 now.

    if you want a clue as to what really happened, try reading the potbs forums from launch, otherwise stfu, seriously.

  • GyrusGyrus Lost City of ZMember Posts: 2,413 Uncommon
    Originally posted by Havohej


     

    ...



    What I don't want is to see the truth debated by third parties or argue Forum PvP strategies ;) So, I'll check back here tomorrow to see if Linna has chosen to reply here or PM me.

    Please re-read my post then.

     

    By creating a thread in a public forum - YOU - opened the debate to "third parties".



    Now, based on this thread I found this thread at FLS forums

    http://www.burningsea.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33865

    and found this post by Linna interesting http://www.burningsea.com/forums/showpost.php?p=444603&postcount=354

    To me, it just shows (yet again) that FLS has no idea what an MMO is, what makes it work, or about the psychology of MMO gamers.

    There was always going to be "Cross Teaming".  Rules or no rules.  But once again, FLS didn't think it through (the fact that it would happen or their response to it).

    Ironically, one poster brings up the "Don't be a jerk" rule.

    If FLS adhered to that particular rule many of the Devs would be banned from the game too.

    The other big surprise from that thread is that I actually agree with Beltpouch's comments for once!

     

    Now @Havohej regardless of your personal feelings toward Linna, I read the other thread and aside from a number of posters taking some things a little too personally I don't see the issue?

    PotBS has many faults.

    I think the poor player retention backs that up more than anything else?

    Amongst other problems is FLS's bad management of an MMO.

    Changing the rules 'mid stream' was always going to be problematic.



    Players like Linna are paying customers - and if FLS allowed multiple accounts they should have made any associated rules very clear prior to allowing account activation and accepting payment.



    Is Linna bitter?  Hell, I would be.  I would be more than bitter.  She has invested a lot of time and effort into the game so she has every 'right' to be.

    As for was she 'banned'?  I would doubt they banned all her accounts.  But, if I were her, and they banned even one of my accounts - I would most likely cancel the rest.  I suspect players will 'cut their losses' at this point.  After all, who knows what ill conceived policy FLS will dream up next?

     

     

    Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.


  • Originally posted by cludinsk
    if you want a clue as to what really happened, try reading the potbs forums from launch, otherwise stfu, seriously.

    I have. As well as much of the archived beta forum. I've also spoken at length with beta players on Pirate Antigua (hell, most of my main's society on Antigua is beta players who either been there the whole time or recently resubscribed), French Blackbeard and British Blackbeard. I'm well aware of the history of the game itself. Each individual player tells an individual story; some agree, some don't. In the end, all you get from any one player is a retelling of events with varying degrees of accuracy and invariably colored by personal opinions (whether they be positive, negative, or filled with animosity due to slights real and/or perceived).


    For example, your "11 servers down to basically 1 now" comment - it's an opinion, nothing more. I play currently and it is my opinion that there are "basically" 3 servers now, though one of them may be struggling to get moving after problems with the transfer system conspired against its launch. That's also an opinion, however. In fact, there are 5 servers remaining (Antigua, Blackbeard, Defiant, Rackham, Roberts) plus Testbed.


    What I'm not so familiar with is the drama between this one player and FLS. So I've inquired about it in just as public a manner as this same player's comments which caused me to be interested in that drama in the first place. That's what this thread is about. If you'd like to discuss another topic, i.e. the history of PotBS, feel free to start a thread about it. Or even better yet, contribute to the existing thread about "What did PotBS do wrong?" as it seems you have quite a bit to contribute to that topic from personal experience.

    If you want a clue as to what I am or am not aware of regarding PotBS, try reading my previous posts here and there (same screenname). Otherwise, you know what to do. ;)

  • CropperCropper Matteson, ILMember Posts: 198

    Why are you bringing this up now?  It's old news, Linna has addressed it...months ago.  All of Fated left the game because it is, in our opinion, a POS so the issue is done and gone.  As others have noted if you have questions, send her a PM leave it off the public boards. 

  • Thank you, Gyrus, for the first well reasoned post I've read on this forum yet! It's been the first thing that approached a topic with anything other than argumentative bile or outright flaming (which even I was guilty of in the other thread, admittedly). The first stone was cast here, where she suggested that I was either intentionally lying about the API being bugged or stupid (it's possible that I overreacted to that one as you say, Gyrus) and followed it up immediately by stating that anyone who disagrees with her opinion of the game (i.e., me) is nothing but a rabid fanboy. Then she has the nerve to complain that she felt "attacked"! Glass houses...



    Originally posted by Cropper
    if you have questions, send her a PM leave it off the public boards.


    I already answered that.

  • ZorvanZorvan nowhere, CAMember Posts: 8,912 Common

    Creating a thread for the express purpose of singling out an individual person on these forums falls under "personal attacks" and the thread has been reported as such.

    If you have such a problem with this person, take it up with them in private. This amounts to the same thing as waiting until someone leaves the room, and then talking shit behind their backs.


  • Originally posted by Zorvan
    Creating a thread for the express purpose of singling out an individual person on these forums falls under "personal attacks" and the thread has been reported as such.
    If you have such a problem with this person, take it up with them in private. This amounts to the same thing as waiting until someone leaves the room, and then talking shit behind their backs.


    It's public, so there's no "behind their back" about it. Their insults in the other thread were public, and as such, so is this question. Report whatever you like.

  • GyrusGyrus Lost City of ZMember Posts: 2,413 Uncommon
    Originally posted by Havohej


    Thank you, Gyrus, for the first well reasoned post I've read on this forum yet! It's been the first thing that approached a topic with anything other than argumentative bile or outright flaming (which even I was guilty of in the other thread, admittedly). The first stone was cast here, where she suggested that I was either intentionally lying about the API being bugged or stupid (it's possible that I overreacted to that one as you say, Gyrus) and followed it up immediately by stating that anyone who disagrees with her opinion of the game (i.e., me) is nothing but a rabid fanboy. Then she has the nerve to complain that she felt "attacked"! Glass houses...
    ...

     

    As for the API - I would suggest the person who could give the best answers outside the Dev team is ArmEagle.

     

    And, no.  Linna did not say that anyone who disagrees with her is a fanboi.

    What she said is that only a rabid fanboi would seriously claim that the game is doing better in terms of attracting and retaining customers than when it was first released.

    I would have to agree.

    Despite supposed marketing pushes - the population is pretty much as it was prior to those pushes.

    The only change is Defiant and that was a population move, not an increase so cannot be used to justify anything.

    Defiant is countered by Invincible which will close in 3 weeks - but again that is due to changes in contracts not changes in population.

    The sad thing is that the game population and community is so low now that one or two accounts actually make a difference.

    Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  • Invincible is already gone - it's replaced (in theory) by Defiant, but in fact a lot of the Aussies rolled to Antigua or Blackbeard. At the same time, a lot of people from BB or Antigua who play in PST time zone tried to transfer to Defiant, but that's where the problem with the system came in (like I've said before, I'm not 100% clear on if that's been totally fixed... I remember seeing a post saying it was, but then I saw a post saying transfers are temporarily disabled again, so not sure).


    But look, none of you guys who aren't actually subscribed anymore can tell me there aren't dozens of new noobs on the OS on Antigua and to a lesser extent Blackbeard and I'm NOT talking re-rolls and transfers - all of those guys brought their 50's when they xferred from Roberts of the Rack. That's like me telling you how econ was in beta without LSB's - as a lot of people love to point out I "wasn't in beta" so somehow that means I don't get to talk about what I see NOW as I play. I joined in September and just in the last 3 months there's been an upsurge of new players as evidenced by their asking for help on Nation, their posting questions on the forums and just seeing them with my own eyes.


    Nobody ever said they have 100k subscribers now - at least I didn't. And I'm pretty sure I said in another post somewhere here that the core game is still the same right now with the exception of AvCom (which DID make people not stay even if it didn't make level 50 beta gods like you guys leave) which will be much different in the next patch (mixed reviews, I haven't playtested it myself). It's understandable why anybody would take FLS's reports that skirmish is very close with a grain of salt... I just tend to trust that claim based on how honest they are about Port Governance and "fixing" the economic model being long term goals for the far future; Rusty alluded to a 3-year-long to-do list.


    My opinion is that even if it all ends up getting merged down to just ONE or TWO servers (as compared with 10+ at launch, which again I've said was overly optimistic for a niche product), with the higher population quality of play automatically improves, if new AvCom helps retain more of the new players who were just leaving after their trial, then that's great, and the sooner Skirmish lands (which so many folks seem to want, even if I'm not thrilled about it) then that's even better... so from my perspective, things ARE improving. That doesn't make me a "rabid fanboy", it means my opinion differs from yours.

  • GyrusGyrus Lost City of ZMember Posts: 2,413 Uncommon
    Originally posted by Havohej


    Invincible is already gone - it's replaced (in theory) by Defiant, but in fact a lot of the Aussies rolled to Antigua or Blackbeard. At the same time, a lot of people from BB or Antigua who play in PST time zone tried to transfer to Defiant, but that's where the problem with the system came in (like I've said before, I'm not 100% clear on if that's been totally fixed... I remember seeing a post saying it was, but then I saw a post saying transfers are temporarily disabled again, so not sure).


    But look, none of you guys who aren't actually subscribed anymore can tell me there aren't dozens of new noobs on the OS on Antigua and to a lesser extent Blackbeard and I'm NOT talking re-rolls and transfers - all of those guys brought their 50's when they xferred from Roberts of the Rack. That's like me telling you how econ was in beta without LSB's - as a lot of people love to point out I "wasn't in beta" so somehow that means I don't get to talk about what I see NOW as I play. I joined in September and just in the last 3 months there's been an upsurge of new players as evidenced by their asking for help on Nation, their posting questions on the forums and just seeing them with my own eyes.


    Nobody ever said they have 100k subscribers now - at least I didn't. And I'm pretty sure I said in another post somewhere here that the core game is still the same right now with the exception of AvCom (which DID make people not stay even if it didn't make level 50 beta gods like you guys leave) which will be much different in the next patch (mixed reviews, I haven't playtested it myself). It's understandable why anybody would take FLS's reports that skirmish is very close with a grain of salt... I just tend to trust that claim based on how honest they are about Port Governance and "fixing" the economic model being long term goals for the far future; Rusty alluded to a 3-year-long to-do list.


    My opinion is that even if it all ends up getting merged down to just ONE or TWO servers (as compared with 10+ at launch, which again I've said was overly optimistic for a niche product), with the higher population quality of play automatically improves, if new AvCom helps retain more of the new players who were just leaving after their trial, then that's great, and the sooner Skirmish lands (which so many folks seem to want, even if I'm not thrilled about it) then that's even better... so from my perspective, things ARE improving. That doesn't make me a "rabid fanboy", it means my opinion differs from yours.

    Invincible is not gone yet... I am still there and will move characters in the next few days - maybe.  My days with this game are numbered too.

    There are a couple of others still on Invincible too apparently - I know that because I had a sale on the AH a couple of nights ago.

     

    Noobies may come... but as Linna is saying... they don't stay.  Maybe one or two do but at best this just keeps the very low population static.  I don't think 'growth' is a word you would use is it?

    "a 3-year-long to-do list."?  PotBS will be luck to survive that long if that is what they are planning.

    Again, why would you take the term 'rabid fanboi' personally?  By your comments - even you seem to think the population is small and static?

    Don't count on FLS reducing the servers further below 4... they had the perfect chance to 'compress the population' with the transfers from Invincible.  They chose instead to create a fifth (unneeded) server.

    The game mechanics (one nation per server) require 4 servers - the only reason they will maintain 5 is if they introduce a 5th nation (Dutch).

     

    Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.


  • Originally posted by Gyrus
    Invincible is not gone yet... I am still there and will move characters in the next few days - maybe. My days with this game are numbered too.
    There are a couple of others still on Invincible too apparently - I know that because I had a sale on the AH a couple of nights ago.

    Interesting; when it disappeared from the server list I thought it was 100% finished and everyone was off of it. May I ask why you haven't transferred off already?


    As to the rest of your post, aye, a lot of new people haven't been staying - I'm of the opinion that this new AvCom which is apparently more similar to what other MMOs use will help that retention. As much as you or I might not give a damn about AvCom, some players are really put off by the fact that there's not more to do on land and that the AvCom was so awkward. Static population suggests that the population 'bleeding' has mostly stopped. So if, now, a FEW people are coming on board without MORE people leaving, you might not consider it growth yet but can you really say it's not at least a step in the right direction? And if the AvCom change DOES lead to more noobs staying on, then c'mon... hate the game all you want, but that's improvement.


    While none of us is privy to FLS's bank statements, in the last few months they've upgraded into a larger office and hired more people; that doesn't seem to me like a company on the verge of bankruptcy, so I don't think the 3-year expectancy is that out of the question, especially if the new AvCom helps retain new trial players and if the Skirmish system hits (and succeeds) as soon as they're suggesting it will (on testbed by mid '09 or so is my understanding).


    "Rabid fanboy" connotes blind stupidity and fawning, like the lady who killed herself in front of Paula Abdul's house; rabid fanboy I am not. To say that anyone who holds an opinion other than your own is such a clown is very much an insult, and passing arrogant to boot. Yes, I took it personally.


  • GyrusGyrus Lost City of ZMember Posts: 2,413 Uncommon
    Originally posted by Havohej


     

    Originally posted by Gyrus

    Invincible is not gone yet... I am still there and will move characters in the next few days - maybe. My days with this game are numbered too.

    There are a couple of others still on Invincible too apparently - I know that because I had a sale on the AH a couple of nights ago.

     

    Interesting; when it disappeared from the server list I thought it was 100% finished and everyone was off of it. May I ask why you haven't transferred off already?



    As to the rest of your post, aye, a lot of new people haven't been staying - I'm of the opinion that this new AvCom which is apparently more similar to what other MMOs use will help that retention. As much as you or I might not give a damn about AvCom, some players are really put off by the fact that there's not more to do on land and that the AvCom was so awkward. Static population suggests that the population 'bleeding' has mostly stopped. So if, now, a FEW people are coming on board without MORE people leaving, you might not consider it growth yet but can you really say it's not at least a step in the right direction? And if the AvCom change DOES lead to more noobs staying on, then c'mon... hate the game all you want, but that's improvement.



    While none of us is privy to FLS's bank statements, in the last few months they've upgraded into a larger office and hired more people; that doesn't seem to me like a company on the verge of bankruptcy, so I don't think the 3-year expectancy is that out of the question, especially if the new AvCom helps retain new trial players and if the Skirmish system hits (and succeeds) as soon as they're suggesting it will (on testbed by mid '09 or so is my understanding).



    "Rabid fanboy" connotes blind stupidity and fawning, like the lady who killed herself in front of Paula Abdul's house; rabid fanboy I am not. To say that anyone who holds an opinion other than your own is such a clown is very much an insult, and passing arrogant to boot. Yes, I took it personally.

     

    I stayed on Invincible because I am still leveling (after a year, believe it or not! - my play style is 'leisurely')

    Maybe the AvCom will help retain noobies... but really I think the core issues go far beyond AvCom.  Wait and see I suppose.

    FLS are an enigma - I wonder where their funding comes from?

    The larger office won't help PotBS though - aren't they working on something new?

    (I hope for everyone's sake it is not another MMO!)

     

    Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  • I like that, not feeling a need to succumb to levelling pressure, just enjoying the game :)

    Rusty more or less has said that PotBS is personally funded with supplements from investors. My assumption is that they made a good bit of cash off of Rails Across America and with that plus investments plus the subscription money they DO get, they're not in any immediate danger. Whether they're currently spending more money than they make, who knows. I'd guess not (or else there wouldn't be a 3 year plan) but I'm sure other people will say otherwise.


    There WAS mention of another game in the works, but I don't know if it's an MMO. Rusty insisted that they haven't diverted PotBS staff away to work on that (was part of hiring new people I think), but again, you can choose whether to believe that or not. CCP said they didn't take any EVE devs off of EVE to work on the new WoD game with White Wolf, but a lot of folks didn't believe them either. Me, I don't know (in either of those cases). I agree, though, that the last thing they need to do is another MMO without finding perfection on PotBS (or shutting it down and learning from every mistake they've made so far).


    Which is not to say that I consider Pirates a 'failed game' already! If I did, I wouldn't be paying for it.

This discussion has been closed.