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Opinions on quality tanking & defenses? Swordmaster vs Ironbreaker

WarmakerWarmaker San Diego, CAPosts: 2,231Member

I'm seeking what people think on how well either Swordmaster or Ironbreaker are if they're specced / geared towards defense & tanking.

My original toon is a Swordmaster, originally geared towards Greatswords.  I switched her to tanking since at the time, Order tanks on my server were practically unheard of.

But things have changed recently.  I've been seeing more Ironbreakers, specifically towards the tanking aspect.  My Swordmaster could do alright with defense, but after rolling an Ironbreaker myself and looking at the skills they have, I began to wonder why should I even go defense with my Swordmaster, since I mainly did so for PvP?  SM's just seem so subpar on defense in comparison.

I've become more and more impressed with Ironbreaker defense after seeing them in later actions.

Do SM's and IB's even out on defense / tanking at higher levels?  Or do IB's keep that defense edge?

"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)

Comments

  • IxnatifualIxnatifual AarhusPosts: 475Member

    Swordmasters are designed to be more offensive and less defensive than Ironbreakers. You can alleviate this somewhat with Mastery specialization. In addition, Swordmasters have better options for anti-magic tanking.

  • markoraosmarkoraos Station alphaPosts: 1,593Member

    I'm playing a SM 21 as a main and.. here's what I like about my class / what I consider its strong points.

    - decent DPS with a 2H although this shouldn't be the classes main role - I use 2h almost exclusively in solo PvE to make mobs go down a bit faster. In RvR it is sword and board 90% of the time.

    - good AoE debuffs - spirit res debuff works great in combination with dps healers, especially AMs.. the one which pushes several enemies away is extremely useful in flag or objective taking moments as well as buying time on narrow bridges etc

    - spirit damage attacks combined with debuffs make it a great "anti-tank tank"

    - you don't rely on any build up mechanic - if IB is a grudgy dwarf exploding his pent-up anger in a burst of DPS then SM is a steel grinding machine that simply won't stop.

    - you're quite a bit more visible in PvP - I did a "pink elf" experiment with dyeing my beautiful self in the most garish pink/neon green combo and I can tell you it worked like a charm. No self respecting destro would pass the chance to nail down the pink elf in a dress.

    - otherwise with sword and board a SM is a tank-tank, especially if you specialize in path of Vaul. I have no problem whatsoever with main tanking lords and just a few hours ago i had 5-6 destros beating on me in a scenario for more than a minute completely unable to kill me with just minimal heals and a right combo of skills - damage soaking barrier thing and +25% to parry.

    /add

    apologize if any of the above can apply to IB's as well - i admit i haven't closely looked into that class but these are my impressions from seeing both IBs and SMs work on the battlefield.

  • WarmakerWarmaker San Diego, CAPosts: 2,231Member
    Originally posted by markoraos


    I'm playing a SM 21 as a main and.. here's what I like about my class / what I consider its strong points.
    - decent DPS with a 2H although this shouldn't be the classes main role - I use 2h almost exclusively in solo PvE to make mobs go down a bit faster. In RvR it is sword and board 90% of the time.
    - good AoE debuffs - spirit res debuff works great in combination with dps healers, especially AMs.. the one which pushes several enemies away is extremely useful in flag or objective taking moments as well as buying time on narrow bridges etc
    - spirit damage attacks combined with debuffs make it a great "anti-tank tank"
    - you don't rely on any build up mechanic - if IB is a grudgy dwarf exploding his pent-up anger in a burst of DPS then SM is a steel grinding machine that simply won't stop.
    - you're quite a bit more visible in PvP - I did a "pink elf" experiment with dyeing my beautiful self in the most garish pink/neon green combo and I can tell you it worked like a charm. No self respecting destro would pass the chance to nail down the pink elf in a dress.
    - otherwise with sword and board a SM is a tank-tank, especially if you specialize in path of Vaul. I have no problem whatsoever with main tanking lords and just a few hours ago i had 5-6 destros beating on me in a scenario for more than a minute completely unable to kill me with just minimal heals and a right combo of skills - damage soaking barrier thing and +25% to parry.
    /add
    apologize if any of the above can apply to IB's as well - i admit i haven't closely looked into that class but these are my impressions from seeing both IBs and SMs work on the battlefield.



     

    As far as the Spirit debuff, I actually do that alot in RvR.  Maybe I should actually coordinate with the AM's on my side to look out for this lol

    I guess I'll stick with tanking with my SM for now, even though I have a feisty, foul mouthed, up-and-comming, half-drunk, Dwarven Ironbreaker on the rise.

    "I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)

  • csthaocsthao Saint Paul, MNPosts: 1,111Member

    I like playing my Ironbreaker, he's awesome when it comes to PvP.  I average about 25k damage in t2 scenarios, and if I have my brother playing a healer I can go up to 40k damage. The oath friend ability is nice, it helps build up your grudge points you need to use your abilities. In terms of defenses compared to SM's it all comes down to how you spec your stats and how you play each class.  Toughness and Initiative are a big thing to train your renown points into.

  • kumobladekumoblade Mechanicsburg, PAPosts: 72Member

    In tier 1 and going into Tier 2, i found no problem keeping up with Ironbreakers with my sword master.

    The biggest difference is their focus.

     

    Ironbreakers focus on Hitpoints, armor and toughness like a very traditional tank.

     

    Swordmasters, not so much.  They're definitely not the standard tank archtype.  Instead of relying on Armor and Hit Points, we get nifty things like Phantom blade and such which absorb damage for us.

     

    Phantom blade combined with 25% parry (which you should always keep refreshed and ready to rock), and if you're sword n boardin add block, you'll find yourself nigh unkillable.

     

    Swinging around a big ole' 2 hander is just too much fun though, however I find the path of khaine tree very underdressed compared to Hoeth or Vaul which seem more fleshed out.

  • eldarineldarin istanbulPosts: 21Member

    Ironbreaker is made for teamwork . All his buffs and skills are designed for guarding his oathfriend. Especially to guard  runepriests . I am playing warhammer with my 2 friends. Their classes are runepriest and engineer. As individuals all three characters are ordinary. But as a team (ofc teamwork is greater than everything but its not that simple)  we re like a shredder. That made us to think Mythic designed dwarves to play together. And it works in PVE too . ironbreaker's buffs have a secondary  aim to decrease the agro from his oathfriend . Swordmaster is my second toon when my friends are not online i play with my sm.  SM is good in teamplay in PVE and PVP and far more better than an alone dwarf . In brief IB made for teamwork a team which is made from friends not ordinary people. (BTW after checking what i wrote here i found it sensational especially a lone dwarf  in cold shaking hands cold gray armor  then an engineer and a runepriest comes ...)

  • markoraosmarkoraos Station alphaPosts: 1,593Member
    Originally posted by eldarin


    Ironbreaker is made for teamwork . All his buffs and skills are designed for guarding his oathfriend. Especially to guard  runepriests . I am playing warhammer with my 2 friends. Their classes are runepriest and engineer. As individuals all three characters are ordinary. But as a team (ofc teamwork is greater than everything but its not that simple)  we re like a shredder. That made us to think Mythic designed dwarves to play together. And it works in PVE too . ironbreaker's buffs have a secondary  aim to decrease the agro from his oathfriend . Swordmaster is my second toon when my friends are not online i play with my sm.  SM is good in teamplay in PVE and PVP and far more better than an alone dwarf . In brief IB made for teamwork a team which is made from friends not ordinary people. (BTW after checking what i wrote here i found it sensational especially a lone dwarf  in cold shaking hands cold gray armor  then an engineer and a runepriest comes ...)

     

    I'd agree in general principle...

    It seems that IB works better in a 2-man combo and while concetrating on single targets while SM is more of a mass combat oriented tank.

    IB's Oath Friend is simply made for a 2-man team that sticks together. While SW has guard as well I find it more situational in use - helping out mates that seem to have temporary problems.

    IB skills generally do concentrate more on single targets while SM has more of AOE skills.

    The knocback is a case in point. IB's knocback works on a single target and is 100% effective. SM's equivalent is aoe but doesn't work all of the time on all targets (some seem to resist it from what I've seen).

    I find SM great for just loosening up and charging the biggest pile of red on my screen.

  • MrVicchioMrVicchio San Antonio, TXPosts: 598Member

     I cannot speak for Order tanks, but considering the mirroring of role if not style that Mythic has, I'll use the Black Orc and Chosen and I'll bet'cha you'll find SM and IB are rather alike.

     

    My wife plays a Black Orc, she can tank like nothing I've ever seen in an MMO.  8-10 mobs of equal level on her?  No problem!  I being a Zealot my intent was to heal her through combat... I'm ALMOST useless to her. Sure, against Champions and Heroes I come in handy, but for the most part... she stands there and takes it like a champ.   Her problem is, DPS.  Her DPS output is very low.

     

    So she started a Chosen, just to get  a feel for it.  The first thing we noticed was they cannot take as much damage.  BUT they do more damage, for you old WoW players a BO is a Prot Warrior and a Chosen is a Fury/Arms warrior.

     

    And I'm betting the same applies to Order with IB being the tank and the SM being the off tank/dps type.

    When I am on my ranged DPS I generally do NOT waste time trying to take out the tanks and instead take out the dps guys.

    Always change your signature.

  • markoraosmarkoraos Station alphaPosts: 1,593Member
    Originally posted by MrVicchio


     I cannot speak for Order tanks, but considering the mirroring of role if not style that Mythic has, I'll use the Black Orc and Chosen and I'll bet'cha you'll find SM and IB are rather alike.
     
    My wife plays a Black Orc, she can tank like nothing I've ever seen in an MMO.  8-10 mobs of equal level on her?  No problem!  I being a Zealot my intent was to heal her through combat... I'm ALMOST useless to her. Sure, against Champions and Heroes I come in handy, but for the most part... she stands there and takes it like a champ.   Her problem is, DPS.  Her DPS output is very low.
     
    So she started a Chosen, just to get  a feel for it.  The first thing we noticed was they cannot take as much damage.  BUT they do more damage, for you old WoW players a BO is a Prot Warrior and a Chosen is a Fury/Arms warrior.
     
    And I'm betting the same applies to Order with IB being the tank and the SM being the off tank/dps type.
    When I am on my ranged DPS I generally do NOT waste time trying to take out the tanks and instead take out the dps guys.

     

    Hmm, imo it's the other way around :)

    Black Ork's mirror is Swordmaster (BO has his "plans" instead of balance and the skills mirror very closely) while Chosen's mirror is IB.

    Yep, it seems SM is more tanky than IB. O.o Weirdness ensues, appearances to the contrary... Some gearhead should do some serious math on this.

  • JatwhalJatwhal Las Vegas, NVPosts: 162Member

    Just pick something and play it WAR is losing players faster than subscribers.

    They're making up their numbers for press releases.

    The games gimped .

    WoW Lich expansion will drain what remains of WAR players next month.

     

    OMG I can't believe that hasn't been posted yet in this thread by the H8rs!!

    They must have had a long night at NASA

     

    And don't flame me please this is all in jest as you all know I'm a fanboi :)

    I would like to state that in no way shape or form that anything I receive from SOE influences my opinion about SWG or their company. I’m pretty much a typical average player enjoying the game.

  • BinaryDigitBinaryDigit Litchfield, MEPosts: 49Member

    I've played both, but only up to rank 8.  IMHO the IB is the better tank, whereas the SM is the better melee DPS.

    While I've tried both, the majority of my opinion is based upon my experiences with my main.  As a healer, I tend to notice how squishy people are.  Through T2 I can honestly say that I spend a lot more time healing SMs than I do healing IBs.

    Based on my limited knowledge I would postulate the following:

    SMs are better solo tanks.  IBs are better group tanks.

    Meridian 59 Beta Tester circa 1996

  • BladinBladin Seattle, WAPosts: 1,102Member

    i was under the impression the chosens mirror was the to be released kotbs, whereas the ironbreaker was to mirror the blackguard?

    image

  • Z3R01Z3R01 NYC, NYPosts: 2,426Member
    Originally posted by markoraos

    Originally posted by MrVicchio


     I cannot speak for Order tanks, but considering the mirroring of role if not style that Mythic has, I'll use the Black Orc and Chosen and I'll bet'cha you'll find SM and IB are rather alike.
     
    My wife plays a Black Orc, she can tank like nothing I've ever seen in an MMO.  8-10 mobs of equal level on her?  No problem!  I being a Zealot my intent was to heal her through combat... I'm ALMOST useless to her. Sure, against Champions and Heroes I come in handy, but for the most part... she stands there and takes it like a champ.   Her problem is, DPS.  Her DPS output is very low.
     
    So she started a Chosen, just to get  a feel for it.  The first thing we noticed was they cannot take as much damage.  BUT they do more damage, for you old WoW players a BO is a Prot Warrior and a Chosen is a Fury/Arms warrior.
     
    And I'm betting the same applies to Order with IB being the tank and the SM being the off tank/dps type.
    When I am on my ranged DPS I generally do NOT waste time trying to take out the tanks and instead take out the dps guys.

     

    Hmm, imo it's the other way around :)

    Black Ork's mirror is Swordmaster (BO has his "plans" instead of balance and the skills mirror very closely) while Chosen's mirror is IB.

    Yep, it seems SM is more tanky than IB. O.o Weirdness ensues, appearances to the contrary... Some gearhead should do some serious math on this.

    Nope the IronBreakers mirror hasen't been released yet its the Blackguard with its Hatred mechanic.

    Tank Mirrors will be:  Chosen v Knight, Black Ork v Swordmaster, Blackguard v Ironbreaker

    Playing:

    Waiting on:

  • onlinenow225onlinenow225 San Diego, CAPosts: 381Member

    I dont want to burst anyones bubble, but Swordmasters as of right now are by far the worst tank in the game.

    Yes they are damage oriented tanks, but Ironbrakers do more damage.  Ironbrakers also midigate damage better as well as support party members better.

     

    Over all atm Swordmasters are completely useless when it comes to the Order side.  On a side note at the moment Order is pretty much gimped with its class' with the exception of BW's IB's, and maybe even RP's too.

    Every other pairing of class's is horribly underpowered in comparison.

     

     

  • Frostbite05Frostbite05 Jacksonville, FLPosts: 1,880Member

    ive played both sides they arent gimped swordmasters are just good as black orcs. They do supperior damage compared to ironbreakers but dont negate as much damage.

  • markoraosmarkoraos Station alphaPosts: 1,593Member
    Originally posted by Z3R01

    Originally posted by markoraos

    Originally posted by MrVicchio


     I cannot speak for Order tanks, but considering the mirroring of role if not style that Mythic has, I'll use the Black Orc and Chosen and I'll bet'cha you'll find SM and IB are rather alike.
     
    My wife plays a Black Orc, she can tank like nothing I've ever seen in an MMO.  8-10 mobs of equal level on her?  No problem!  I being a Zealot my intent was to heal her through combat... I'm ALMOST useless to her. Sure, against Champions and Heroes I come in handy, but for the most part... she stands there and takes it like a champ.   Her problem is, DPS.  Her DPS output is very low.
     
    So she started a Chosen, just to get  a feel for it.  The first thing we noticed was they cannot take as much damage.  BUT they do more damage, for you old WoW players a BO is a Prot Warrior and a Chosen is a Fury/Arms warrior.
     
    And I'm betting the same applies to Order with IB being the tank and the SM being the off tank/dps type.
    When I am on my ranged DPS I generally do NOT waste time trying to take out the tanks and instead take out the dps guys.

     

    Hmm, imo it's the other way around :)

    Black Ork's mirror is Swordmaster (BO has his "plans" instead of balance and the skills mirror very closely) while Chosen's mirror is IB.

    Yep, it seems SM is more tanky than IB. O.o Weirdness ensues, appearances to the contrary... Some gearhead should do some serious math on this.

    Nope the IronBreakers mirror hasen't been released yet its the Blackguard with its Hatred mechanic.

    Tank Mirrors will be:  Chosen v Knight, Black Ork v Swordmaster, Blackguard v Ironbreaker

     

    Really? Now that's interesting...

    I thought the kicked classes were all mirrored becuse they couldn't get the mechanics to take off. Lol!

    Black Ork is a Swordmaster though, the skills and mechanicsa are really closely matched although I do believe BOs got a substantial buff in one specialization (dps obviously) to compensate for lack of greenskin MDPS class... pretty much like IBs can get pretty feisty if they choose to.

  • AmegashieAmegashie naPosts: 282Member Uncommon

    Thanks to their bubbles ( baseline attack proc, specced block/parry proc and specced spell ) Swordmasters are the better tank to, well, tank on order site. Especially when it comes to PQs and other PvE AoE tanking, given the classes' AoE attacks. In my expierience the Swordmaster is also the better soloer.

    Things change completely when talking group/mass RvR though. Oathfriend is massive, depending on the situation on a healer, or another tank upfront, or an MDPS charging the enemy lines with you. With moderate investments of carreer points the Ironbreaker becomes a CC monster on top ( reactive single knockdown, baseline single knockback, Powered Etchings - AoE knockback + snare + dmg, Earthshatter - AoE snare + massive dmg, tank baseline AoE root ).

    The Swordmaster has some mildly useful tools to annoy casters in his mastery trees, but lacks the damage to put them to full use. Spirit damage is kinda cool, but not really better than the IB's up to 75% armor debuff on a 5s cooldown.

    In RvR the Dorf benefits an organized group tremendously thanks to his massive utility. The Elf is currently just a somewhat more survivable MDPS with gimped damage.

    Conclusion ( as of patch 1.02 ):

    soloplay and PvE: roll Swordmaster

    RvR: roll Ironbreaker

    Obviously this is subject to change and I can't imagine i.e. Earthshatter will stay this way. Substantial changes might be and probably are still months away though.

  • Z3R01Z3R01 NYC, NYPosts: 2,426Member
    Originally posted by markoraos

    Originally posted by Z3R01

    Originally posted by markoraos

    Originally posted by MrVicchio


     I cannot speak for Order tanks, but considering the mirroring of role if not style that Mythic has, I'll use the Black Orc and Chosen and I'll bet'cha you'll find SM and IB are rather alike.
     
    My wife plays a Black Orc, she can tank like nothing I've ever seen in an MMO.  8-10 mobs of equal level on her?  No problem!  I being a Zealot my intent was to heal her through combat... I'm ALMOST useless to her. Sure, against Champions and Heroes I come in handy, but for the most part... she stands there and takes it like a champ.   Her problem is, DPS.  Her DPS output is very low.
     
    So she started a Chosen, just to get  a feel for it.  The first thing we noticed was they cannot take as much damage.  BUT they do more damage, for you old WoW players a BO is a Prot Warrior and a Chosen is a Fury/Arms warrior.
     
    And I'm betting the same applies to Order with IB being the tank and the SM being the off tank/dps type.
    When I am on my ranged DPS I generally do NOT waste time trying to take out the tanks and instead take out the dps guys.

     

    Hmm, imo it's the other way around :)

    Black Ork's mirror is Swordmaster (BO has his "plans" instead of balance and the skills mirror very closely) while Chosen's mirror is IB.

    Yep, it seems SM is more tanky than IB. O.o Weirdness ensues, appearances to the contrary... Some gearhead should do some serious math on this.

    Nope the IronBreakers mirror hasen't been released yet its the Blackguard with its Hatred mechanic.

    Tank Mirrors will be:  Chosen v Knight, Black Ork v Swordmaster, Blackguard v Ironbreaker

     

    Really? Now that's interesting...

    I thought the kicked classes were all mirrored becuse they couldn't get the mechanics to take off. Lol!

    Black Ork is a Swordmaster though, the skills and mechanicsa are really closely matched although I do believe BOs got a substantial buff in one specialization (dps obviously) to compensate for lack of greenskin MDPS class... pretty much like IBs can get pretty feisty if they choose to.

    Nope the Choppa and Hammerer were slightly OP and sucked to play so they scrapped them.

    KotBS was the best tank in beta and was horribly OP so they removed it in order to keep things fair.

    They decided to remove the blackguard due to the least amount of hype on the class(and the fact that it was never seen in beta, and was only internaly tested) even though it worked fine as the Ironbreakers mirror.

    THis is why you see all the "Give us our Blackguard" posts on warhammer alliance forums.

    Blackguards are ready to go they were only taken out due to needing to ommit another tank for balance.

    Which is sad imo

    Playing:

    Waiting on:

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