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Did LOTRO already "Jump the Shark" with Mines of Moria?

qombiqombi Unknown, LAPosts: 1,180Member

I was thinking about picking up the LOTRO title and was reading articles from the LOTRO websites about the new expansion coming. I read a lot of controversal decisions made in the expansion. One of the major concerns of most fans is the introduction of the Rune Keeper class. Do you feel they have broke away from the original game design with the expansion?

 I for one feel bad for players who have chosen the hunter and the minstreal. There is a class coming that can do both just with some sort of a cool down. That is poor design in my opinion unless all your classes in a game can multi role. I also find it odd to have a ram/yak for travel in the mines. Why do developers always ruin games when expansions come along? It seems they all veer away from original game design.

I didn' t think LOTRO would do it on the first expansion. They should refund the players' money that chose to life time subscribe because they made false promises of sticking to the lore. This is all my opinions and are not facts. I am just so confused to why MMORPGs do this when it has potential of making old players leave and possibly will not attract new players.  

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Comments

  • duffalphaduffalpha tucson, AZPosts: 76Member

    The only people who play LOTRO are hardcore fanboys anyways. That game doesnt have any endgame at all, just a huge grindfest and OK PvE. But all the PvE is designed to be played solo so why not just go play a GOOD RPG. It doesnt matter what they do their player base will eat it up.

    Trust me though, if you have a special place in your heart for Tolkiens lord of the rings, dont let this game ruin that image for you.

  • CutedgeCutedge Tucson, AZPosts: 92Member
    Originally posted by qombi


    I have decided not to choose this title because of the changes I seen coming. I for one feel bad for players who have chosen the hunter and the minstreal. There is a class coming that can do both just with some sort of a cool down. That is poor design in my opinion unless all your classes in a game can multi role. I also find it odd to have a ram/yak for travel in the mines. Why do developers always ruin games when expansions come along? It seems they all veer away from original game design.
    I didn' t think LOTRO would do it on the first expansion. They should refund the players' money that chose to life time subscribe because they made false promises of sticking to the lore. This is all my opinions and are not facts. I am just so confused to why MMORPGs do this when it has potential of making old players leave and possibly will not attract new players.  



     

    Saying that Rune Keeper is the same as a Hunter and a Ministrel is like saying that Hunters should get a refund in WOW because Mages do damage and Priests shuold get a refund because Druids can also heal.

    As far as lore goes, this isn't any worse than any other lore break they've done. I don't think you should base your decision on people screaming in the forums because they don't like the RK.

  • qombiqombi Unknown, LAPosts: 1,180Member
    Originally posted by Cutedge

    Originally posted by qombi


    I have decided not to choose this title because of the changes I seen coming. I for one feel bad for players who have chosen the hunter and the minstreal. There is a class coming that can do both just with some sort of a cool down. That is poor design in my opinion unless all your classes in a game can multi role. I also find it odd to have a ram/yak for travel in the mines. Why do developers always ruin games when expansions come along? It seems they all veer away from original game design.
    I didn' t think LOTRO would do it on the first expansion. They should refund the players' money that chose to life time subscribe because they made false promises of sticking to the lore. This is all my opinions and are not facts. I am just so confused to why MMORPGs do this when it has potential of making old players leave and possibly will not attract new players.  



     

    Saying that Rune Keeper is the same as a Hunter and a Ministrel is like saying that Hunters should get a refund in WOW because Mages do damage and Priests shuold get a refund because Druids can also heal.

    As far as lore goes, this isn't any worse than any other lore break they've done. I don't think you should base your decision on people screaming in the forums because they don't like the RK.

     

    I actually quit WoW because they butchered the class roles in the game, in my opinion WoW jumped the shark with the release of their first expansion. I don't play LOTRO but I can imagine this will be even worse. This class requires no cost to switch build, it is done on a cool down.

    Also I don't know how you can make a comparison of what I wrote and WoW Hunters and Mages. Do mages fill two rolls? As far as I know, they both are dps classes.

  • CartographyCartography Phoenix, AZPosts: 330Member

    "We're slowly trying new things; the addition of the Rune-Keeper in Moria, a straightforward magic using class, is a pretty big step in that respect. It's not something that a pure Tolkien lore person would accept, it just couldn't exist in Middle-Earth. On the other hand, this is an RPG, it must exist."

     -Jeffrey Steefel, Executive Producer

     

  • qombiqombi Unknown, LAPosts: 1,180Member

     If that is what was written then they have definitely "Jumped the Shark". Very sad for LOTRO players.

  • CartographyCartography Phoenix, AZPosts: 330Member
    Originally posted by qombi


     If that is what was written then they have definitely "Jumped the Shark". Very sad for LOTRO players.

    was a quote from this interview:

     

    http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=228691

     

  • YeeboYeebo Laputa, CAPosts: 1,359Member

    That interview had me worried too.  However the design of the Runekeeper has since been clarified by the developers.  It  isn't going to be any more lorebreaking than the Loremaster or Minstrel:

    www.lotro.com/article/585

    A strict lore grognard would not be accept Loremasters summoning giant glowing red Ents  to stomp on their foes, or smiting their enemies with beams of light from the heavens either.  Runemaster won't be any worse than that. 

    I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.

  • Professor78Professor78 TamworthPosts: 588Member

     I would imagine that most Hardcore Tolkien Fans would already have left the game, or  not started in the first place, most people still seem to compare the game to the Films, but saying that, if they read the books its not a hundred miles off. 

    But the Books have created arguably the best fantasy world there is, and imo that is duplicated very well in LOTRO. But players today don't settle for a few classes, they want more.....Just woke up so can't think of how to write to get my point accross yet....

    But for the poster that said its a grindfest.....WTH

    I constantly have a full quest book full of group quests, solo quests, crafting quests and then deeds, Trait bonuses, reputation and the class specific book/page collection quests to give extra skills. Its the only game that I have played that I have not had to grind XP to lvl!

    Its personal pref but for me best MMO for PVE there is atm.

    Core i7(d0)on Foxconn Bloodrage, 6gb Tri DDR3,GTX 680, 120gb OCZ Vertex 2 SSD, 640gb Caviar Black, Windows 7, HAF 932 case, 24" Full HD Dell, Logitech G19, Rat 9, 50mb BB.

  • MrchompyMrchompy Sumner, WAPosts: 58Member

    Major grind? Are you kidding me?

    Right now the max is level 50, fairly easy to get.

    As far as deeds/title/ect. grinding, it's a decent way to have something to do when you're just trying to earn cash when you're level 50. Most of the lower levels of deeds can be finished as you level to 50, then the higher levels you can gradually knock out.

    As far as reputation grinding, it's fairly easy, compared to WoW. Met too many people in WoW who "had" to do their dailies.

    There are raids in the game as well, plus they have made the max level armor set easier to get for those who loath raiding with the vendor system in Rivendell.

    I compare it to the biggest game out there, WoW, like this:

    Improving your charactor after max LvL: WoW: All through gear, earned by raids/high instances PvP.Some epics able to be crafted.

    LoTRO: In addition to gear through raids, crafting and PvMP, there are also traits which can be finished.If you choose to grind them, your charactor will be somewhat better than someone who didn't.

    In addition, many LoTRO players are "casual" players, who enjoy non-combat stuff such as housing, the outfit system,the music system ect. Hopefully more hobbies will be added soon.

    Personally I'm not too concerened about the rune-keeper. Just no intrest being one.

    What sounds great to me is the legendary items that are to be intoduced. They gain experience as they are used, can be broken down, added to.....man that sounds good to me.

  • winterwinter El Paso, TXPosts: 2,276Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by qombi


     If that is what was written then they have definitely "Jumped the Shark". Very sad for LOTRO players.



     

     How can you even say that when you haven't ever played the game? Don't you think maybe we who actually play the game should decide rather then you? ( ie. some guy who doesn't play and appears to be just trying to troll and say how sad the game is for us?) 

     Not trying to attack you but I'd respect your opinion more if it was based on something more then second hand info you read from unknown poster XYZ on the net.

  • DonnieBrascoDonnieBrasco GalwayPosts: 1,757Member
    Originally posted by winter

    Originally posted by qombi


     If that is what was written then they have definitely "Jumped the Shark". Very sad for LOTRO players.



     

     How can you even say that when you haven't ever played the game? Don't you think maybe we who actually play the game should decide rather then you? ( ie. some guy who doesn't play and appears to be just trying to troll and say how sad the game is for us?) 

     Not trying to attack you but I'd respect your opinion more if it was based on something more then second hand info you read from unknown poster XYZ on the net.



     

    /QFT.

    Prett much conveiled troll post. Why in the hell would someone worry about a game who did never play it and have already decided not to play it. Second poster is ever worse, demonstrating a full-scale ignorance about the game, just bashing for the sake of bashing. Almost worth a report :)

    DB

    Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.

  • cogollocogollo RijswijkPosts: 8Member
    Originally posted by duffalpha


    The only people who play LOTRO are hardcore fanboys anyways. That game doesnt have any endgame at all, just a huge grindfest and OK PvE. But all the PvE is designed to be played solo so why not just go play a GOOD RPG. It doesnt matter what they do their player base will eat it up.
    Trust me though, if you have a special place in your heart for Tolkiens lord of the rings, dont let this game ruin that image for you.

     

    Sorry here, but I completely disagree with this opinion.

    I am a casual MMORPG player (play 4-5 hours per week on average), and prefer and play much more pencil-and-paper RPGs. I'm also a big fan of Lord of the Rings (the books), and I'm 30+ with little time to waste in brainless games.

    Having introduced myself, let me say:

    1. I loved the movies, though they are not 100% faithful to the games... but hey, it's a movie, not a book.

    2. I am enjoying LOTRO enormously. Again, it's not 100% faithful to the books... but hey, it's a MMORPG, not a book: graphics are beautiful, most players behave as adults, the texts introducing the quests are long and interesting, deepening LOTR lore and sometimes are even funny/witty, some areas of the game, like "Old Forest", are amazing and have the feeling of an "old school" game...

     

    I also played WoW in my time (left it at level 30 or so) and I found it much more immature and grindfest than LOTRO (my opinion again here).

    Also, LOTRO doesn't force you to play in a Fellowship, but it definitely nudges you toward it... and once you start playing in a Fellowship your realize it's  worth it, and the tactical possibilities when playing in one make the game even more interesting (again, my opinion).

    Even if it's true (and I don't think it will be) I don't care about the Runekeeper being a mix of Minstrel and Loremaster... I play this game for fun, not as a kind of "second job"... and this feeling of having to play a game as a kind of "second job" is what made me quit WoW... too much stress, man (again, my opinion/life experience).

     

    If you want precisely balanced experiences, try Mathematics or Chess.

  • PapadamPapadam Tampa bay, FLPosts: 2,102Member

    Nice to see that logicbox9 have taken over Openedge1s role of being full-time hater of LotrO now :)

    Every expansion brings changes to games... Some people dont like change and will whine about anything!

    LotrO is the best PvE MMO out right now and Mines of Moria will most probably make it even better!

    If WoW = The Beatles
    and WAR = Led Zeppelin
    Then LotrO = Pink Floyd

  • Lazer7Lazer7 Greenville, SCPosts: 91Member

    Please remember that this game is based on the lore from the books. They do not have the rights from the movies, nor would that do them or us any good. The books have some huge differences that the movie added, changed, or just left out.

    There was magic in the Middle Earth, and Gandalf spoke of how he was taught it. There was those that held runes, and they kept the ways of the ancient tongues. There was things that was no thought of as magic, though to some in Middle Earth, it was mystifying to them.

    Keep in mind, with only the lore of the movies, you are casting a false judgement, and  sometimes making false statements when you speak of these things.

    The Yaks/rams are a bit much... Please please please get rid of them.

  • CartographyCartography Phoenix, AZPosts: 330Member
    Originally posted by Papadam


    Nice to see that logicbox9 have taken over Openedge1s role of being full-time hater of LotrO now :)
    Every expansion brings changes to games... Some people dont like change and will whine about anything!
    LotrO is the best PvE MMO out right now and Mines of Moria will most probably make it even better!

     

    Feel free to call me a hater, because I pretty much dislike LoTRO now... however, I posted a quote from the exec. producer... the developer diary did nothing to make the lore fans think that this class is not lore-breaking... you can put lipstick on a mage and call it a rune-keeper, but it's still a mage... but hey, if you are cool with generic fantasy lightning zaps, nice...

     

    There is literally thousands of posts on the official forums about this, there are hundreds about broken promises from Turbine, when they stated they would never add magic and only stray from the lore when it was absolutely necessary from a gameplay perspective (you need a healer in this game, so MInstrel it is)... LM skill descriptions aren't bad, I think most lore-freak  get mad at the animations... but what part of adding a mage class is absolutely necessary... it's absolutely not, and it's just a feeble attempt at Turbine to bolster some more subs from people who play the thousands of other generic MMOs. Where in the books did a dwarf or elf zap a monster with lightning from it's fingers? Gandalf didn't even do it. IMO, this game very much jumped the shark, just because you love it and have tons of fun doesn't mean it didn't.  I'ts a slippery slope, and in the end Turbine will do more injustice to the Tolkien experience than anyone else...

  • WSIMikeWSIMike Catskill, NYPosts: 5,564Member
    Originally posted by duffalpha


    The only people who play LOTRO are hardcore fanboys anyways. That game doesnt have any endgame at all, just a huge grindfest and OK PvE. But all the PvE is designed to be played solo so why not just go play a GOOD RPG. It doesnt matter what they do their player base will eat it up.
    Trust me though, if you have a special place in your heart for Tolkiens lord of the rings, dont let this game ruin that image for you.

     

    Well since we're talking broad-based, subjective generalizations, I'll make one of my own.

    Anyone who would spend time in forums for a game they clearly do not like so they can bash it is a troll.

    See? Works both ways :)

     

     

    "If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road,
    and the cash shop selling asphalt..."
    - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops

    image

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,462Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Yeebo


    That interview had me worried too.  However the design of the Runekeeper has since been clarified by the developers.  It  isn't going to be any more lorebreaking than the Loremaster or Minstrel:
    www.lotro.com/article/585
    A strict lore grognard would not be accept Loremasters summoning giant glowing red Ents  to stomp on their foes, or smiting their enemies with beams of light from the heavens either.  Runemaster won't be any worse than that. 




     

    I think you guys take things way to literally in these games. They are not summoning Giant Ents. It's just an artistic representation. I imagine if there was magic and that one could wield it, there would be clues that only that person could see, swirling energy ro somewhat.

    There is a difference between artistic representation of game mechanics, the inclusion of mmo conventions such as trainers and auction houses and including things that just wouldn't fit in middle earth.

    To that end, Tolkien never mentioned anything about toilets but as we know they must have existed.

    Of course you wouldn't include them in a game as there is no reason.

    There is Trade but the game makers have to include a way to incorporate trade within the context of a game. So sure, auction house is not lore specific but neither is any other mechanism for trade. However, if you are going to have nations it stands to reason that there is going to be some sort of trade. Since the game is not about trade there really wasn't a need for Tolkien to put it in.

    Therefore, when all is said and done, I don't have problems with the game makers adding things that allow the game to be a game.

    But there is a difference between adding some lights or graphics for artistic effect or adding mechanisms that allow for the game to flow like a game and adding classes or races that would never exist in the game world.

  • WSIMikeWSIMike Catskill, NYPosts: 5,564Member
    Originally posted by logicbox9

    Originally posted by Papadam


    Nice to see that logicbox9 have taken over Openedge1s role of being full-time hater of LotrO now :)
    Every expansion brings changes to games... Some people dont like change and will whine about anything!
    LotrO is the best PvE MMO out right now and Mines of Moria will most probably make it even better!

     

    Feel free to call me a hater, because I pretty much dislike LoTRO now... however, I posted a quote from the exec. producer... the developer diary did nothing to make the lore fans think that this class is not lore-breaking... you can put lipstick on a mage and call it a rune-keeper, but it's still a mage... but hey, if you are cool with generic fantasy lightning zaps, nice...

     

    There is literally thousands of posts on the official forums about this, there are hundreds about broken promises from Turbine, when they stated they would never add magic and only stray from the lore when it was absolutely necessary from a gameplay perspective (you need a healer in this game, so MInstrel it is)... LM skill descriptions aren't bad, I think most lore-freak  get mad at the animations... but what part of adding a mage class is absolutely necessary... it's absolutely not, and it's just a feeble attempt at Turbine to bolster some more subs from people who play the thousands of other generic MMOs. Where in the books did a dwarf or elf zap a monster with lightning from it's fingers? Gandalf didn't even do it. IMO, this game very much jumped the shark, just because you love it and have tons of fun doesn't mean it didn't.  I'ts a slippery slope, and in the end Turbine will do more injustice to the Tolkien experience than anyone else...

     

    You have to temper all that - in any kind of entertainment - books, movies, games, music, etc. - with the fact that many people have a very unjustified and unreasonable sense of entitlement. Somehow because they're playing the game (or reading the book, or listening to the CD, etc), they feel that it should cater specifically to them - what they expect, what they want, etc.

    When it doesn't deliver on their expectations of what it "should be" or what it "should do" or how it "should have ended", etc. they feel betrayed, say the given product failed, the creators sold out, etc. etc.

    Some will say "they don't listen to the players", which is really just saying "I said I wanted this, and they didn't do it". People need to temper that with this, self-evident bit of knowledge:

    Players will typically ask for changes that benefit the class they happen to be playing, regardless of how it affects others, what impact it has on content, etc. Turbine has to make changes that will benefit many... not only the most vocal select few.

    The incredible amount of ignorance and arrogance displayed by many who believe they somehow know better how to develop a game than people who have spent years doing so speaks well enough for itself.

    That these people can then post on forums and share their ignorance/arrogance with the rest of us just adds insult to injury.

    When Turbine, or any game developer, makes decisions, they're not just made willy-nilly, nor in a vacuum. In LoTRO's case, they have to pass everything they do by Tolkien Ent. So, agree or disagree all you want, if Tolkien approves it and finds it doesn't "bend the lore" beyond acceptable limits, then who is anyone else to say otherwise?

    In short... People need to get over themselves, realize their opinions aren't sacred and their expectations aren't law.

    Turbine will do what they feel is best for the game. If they're right, great. If they're wrong, then they change things as necessary.

    So far, all indications are - cries of the attention-starved few notwithstanding - they're doing a fine job of it.

     

     

     

    "If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road,
    and the cash shop selling asphalt..."
    - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops

    image

  • PapadamPapadam Tampa bay, FLPosts: 2,102Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath


     I think you guys take things way to literally in these games. They are not summoning Giant Ents. It's just an artistic representation. I imagine if there was magic and that one could wield it, there would be clues that only that person could see, swirling energy ro somewhat.
    There is a difference between artistic representation of game mechanics, the inclusion of mmo conventions such as trainers and auction houses and including things that just wouldn't fit in middle earth.
    To that end, Tolkien never mentioned anything about toilets but as we know they must have existed.
    Of course you wouldn't include them in a game as there is no reason.
    There is Trade but the game makers have to include a way to incorporate trade within the context of a game. So sure, auction house is not lore specific but neither is any other mechanism for trade. However, if you are going to have nations it stands to reason that there is going to be some sort of trade. Since the game is not about trade there really wasn't a need for Tolkien to put it in.
    Therefore, when all is said and done, I don't have problems with the game makers adding things that allow the game to be a game.
    But there is a difference between adding some lights or graphics for artistic effect or adding mechanisms that allow for the game to flow like a game and adding classes or races that would never exist in the game world.



     

    I have argued alot about this on the EU forum. In my opinion the RK is not worse than the Lore master or minstrel they just use different sources for their "magic" (none of it is really magic like in most fantasy)... Both LMs and minstrels can do some crazy stuff that doesnt seem to fit very well in ME and this is just what the RK is aswell..

    If WoW = The Beatles
    and WAR = Led Zeppelin
    Then LotrO = Pink Floyd

  • charlizdcharlizd sydneyPosts: 922Member

    So what do we do with the Captian then he fights with a sword, has a herald (pet) and heals? that is 3 classes in 1 mmmm maybe we should just get rid of Minstrel and LM and be done with the 2 generic classes :)

    Seriously tho i dont know how you could come to the Assumption that the game is not for you with out even trying it? if you dont like the RM dont play it play a different class. Your not going to play the game because you think it is going in the wrong direction but yet you have not tried it to even know what it is like....nice way of thinking, either way we will still be having a ball without ya :)

    image

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,462Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Papadam

    Originally posted by Sovrath


     I think you guys take things way to literally in these games. They are not summoning Giant Ents. It's just an artistic representation. I imagine if there was magic and that one could wield it, there would be clues that only that person could see, swirling energy ro somewhat.
    There is a difference between artistic representation of game mechanics, the inclusion of mmo conventions such as trainers and auction houses and including things that just wouldn't fit in middle earth.
    To that end, Tolkien never mentioned anything about toilets but as we know they must have existed.
    Of course you wouldn't include them in a game as there is no reason.
    There is Trade but the game makers have to include a way to incorporate trade within the context of a game. So sure, auction house is not lore specific but neither is any other mechanism for trade. However, if you are going to have nations it stands to reason that there is going to be some sort of trade. Since the game is not about trade there really wasn't a need for Tolkien to put it in.
    Therefore, when all is said and done, I don't have problems with the game makers adding things that allow the game to be a game.
    But there is a difference between adding some lights or graphics for artistic effect or adding mechanisms that allow for the game to flow like a game and adding classes or races that would never exist in the game world.



     

    I have argued alot about this on the EU forum. In my opinion the RK is not worse than the Lore master or minstrel they just use different sources for their "magic" (none of it is really magic like in most fantasy)... Both LMs and minstrels can do some crazy stuff that doesnt seem to fit very well in ME and this is just what the RK is aswell..



     

    hmm, I disagree. At least to a point. The lore master essentially is a bit far reaching but utilizes abilities that might not be understood by the denizens of middle earth.

    It's tough to quantify because it's not "magic" per se but the results are magic like. Also, to that end, there is "magic" it just doesn't evince itself like DnD fire balls and lightning from the sky in the books.

    The Minstrel uses song to inspire and to influence the outcome of battles. Since music is a powerful convention in the book it makes sense to have a character that can do this. Still a bit of a stretch but there it is.

    The rune keeper shoots lightning from his fingers. So enough said.

    And though WSIMike is correct that the game developers don't make such decisions without a lot of careful thought and he is also right that the level of entitlement and crying in mmo's is far beyond anything that could be considered acceptable for adult society, I feel he is wrong in stating that just because someone is unhappy with the direction a game is going that hey are whiners and feeling entitled.

    LOTRO was presented as a game that was going to stick to the world of J.R.R. Tolkien as much as was possible and still create an online game. Now, hardcore Tolkien fans just couldn't get their mind around the fact that this wasn't going to be a Lord of the Rings simulator (and why would they think any game developer would ever and could ever create such a thing? And make it commercially viable?) and pvp players just couldn't deal with the fact that they weren't going to be able to camp out the shire and pick off hobbits.

    However some middle ground (no pun intended) had to be found that made the game "a game" and still be "The Lord of the Rings".

    It seems that they have slipped a bit and people are concerned. I myself am concerned as the game that I have become a founder for might change to something that I would never become a founder for.

    So I feel it's acceptable for players to complain. Sure, maybe "maybe" Turbine felt that they just needed to make a mage as  most players were expecting it and they might have felt that it would boos subscriptions. But at some point you have to balance the idea of gaining new players and alienating the players who bought into your original concept in the first place. The more you add that disenfranchises the original concept of the game the more the players who actually decided to stay will realize that what made them stay in the first place is gone.

    I think it is perfectly acceptable for players to express their concern or anger. What is not acceptable expressing this displeasure in a way that is reminiscent of a 6  year old boy.

  • MrbloodworthMrbloodworth Newport News, VAPosts: 5,615Member
    Originally posted by qombi


    I was thinking about picking up the LOTRO title and was reading articles from the LOTRO websites about the new expansion coming. I read a lot of controversal decisions made in the expansion. One of the major concerns of most fans is the introduction of the Rune Keeper class. Do you feel they have broke away from the original game design with the expansion?
    I have decided not to choose this title because of the changes I seen coming. I for one feel bad for players who have chosen the hunter and the minstreal. There is a class coming that can do both just with some sort of a cool down. That is poor design in my opinion unless all your classes in a game can multi role. I also find it odd to have a ram/yak for travel in the mines. Why do developers always ruin games when expansions come along? It seems they all veer away from original game design.
    I didn' t think LOTRO would do it on the first expansion. They should refund the players' money that chose to life time subscribe because they made false promises of sticking to the lore. This is all my opinions and are not facts. I am just so confused to why MMORPGs do this when it has potential of making old players leave and possibly will not attract new players.  

     

    You need to reread those articles, because your impression (unless you just like to boil things down without facts) is lacking.

     

    Also, you don’t understand how any of the other classes work. Just about everyone is already a hybrid of some sort.

     

     

    ----------
    "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me

    "No, your wrong.." - Random user #123

    "Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.

    How are you?" -Me

  • PapadamPapadam Tampa bay, FLPosts: 2,102Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath




     
    hmm, I disagree. At least to a point. The lore master essentially is a bit far reaching but utilizes abilities that might not be understood by the denizens of middle earth.
    It's tough to quantify because it's not "magic" per se but the results are magic like. Also, to that end, there is "magic" it just doesn't evince itself like DnD fire balls and lightning from the sky in the books.
    The Minstrel uses song to inspire and to influence the outcome of battles. Since music is a powerful convention in the book it makes sense to have a character that can do this. Still a bit of a stretch but there it is.
    The rune keeper shoots lightning from his fingers. So enough said.
    And though WSIMike is correct that the game developers don't make such decisions without a lot of careful thought and he is also right that the level of entitlement and crying in mmo's is far beyond anything that could be considered acceptable for adult society, I feel he is wrong in stating that just because someone is unhappy with the direction a game is going that hey are whiners and feeling entitled.
    LOTRO was presented as a game that was going to stick to the world of J.R.R. Tolkien as much as was possible and still create an online game. Now, hardcore Tolkien fans just couldn't get their mind around the fact that this wasn't going to be a Lord of the Rings simulator (and why would they think any game developer would ever and could ever create such a thing? And make it commercially viable?) and pvp players just couldn't deal with the fact that they weren't going to be able to camp out the shire and pick off hobbits.
    However some middle ground (no pun intended) had to be found that made the game "a game" and still be "The Lord of the Rings".
    It seems that they have slipped a bit and people are concerned. I myself am concerned as the game that I have become a founder for might change to something that I would never become a founder for.
    So I feel it's acceptable for players to complain. Sure, maybe "maybe" Turbine felt that they just needed to make a mage as  most players were expecting it and they might have felt that it would boos subscriptions. But at some point you have to balance the idea of gaining new players and alienating the players who bought into your original concept in the first place. The more you add that disenfranchises the original concept of the game the more the players who actually decided to stay will realize that what made them stay in the first place is gone.
    I think it is perfectly acceptable for players to express their concern or anger. What is not acceptable expressing this displeasure in a way that is reminiscent of a 6  year old boy.



     

    Yea its about the middle ground between gameplay and Lore and its here where the argument is! Some think that the RK breaks the lore to much and some dont and neither of us are right :)

    And about RKs shooting lightning... the LMs can shoot lightning aswell but they do it because they know alot about the weather? Im not really a big fan of the RK since I dont like to play casters but I just think that alot of people overreacted on the issue (just like everyone always does on forums when it comes to MMOs I guess)

    If WoW = The Beatles
    and WAR = Led Zeppelin
    Then LotrO = Pink Floyd

  • YeeboYeebo Laputa, CAPosts: 1,359Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath



     

    hmm, I disagree. At least to a point. The lore master essentially is a bit far reaching but utilizes abilities that might not be understood by the denizens of middle earth.

    It's tough to quantify because it's not "magic" per se but the results are magic like. Also, to that end, there is "magic" it just doesn't evince itself like DnD fire balls and lightning from the sky in the books.

    The Minstrel uses song to inspire and to influence the outcome of battles. Since music is a powerful convention in the book it makes sense to have a character that can do this. Still a bit of a stretch but there it is.

    The rune keeper shoots lightning from his fingers. So enough said.

    And though WSIMike is correct that the game developers don't make such decisions without a lot of careful thought and he is also right that the level of entitlement and crying in mmo's is far beyond anything that could be considered acceptable for adult society, I feel he is wrong in stating that just because someone is unhappy with the direction a game is going that hey are whiners and feeling entitled.

    LOTRO was presented as a game that was going to stick to the world of J.R.R. Tolkien as much as was possible and still create an online game. Now, hardcore Tolkien fans just couldn't get their mind around the fact that this wasn't going to be a Lord of the Rings simulator (and why would they think any game developer would ever and could ever create such a thing? And make it commercially viable?) and pvp players just couldn't deal with the fact that they weren't going to be able to camp out the shire and pick off hobbits.

    However some middle ground (no pun intended) had to be found that made the game "a game" and still be "The Lord of the Rings".

    It seems that they have slipped a bit and people are concerned. I myself am concerned as the game that I have become a founder for might change to something that I would never become a founder for.

    So I feel it's acceptable for players to complain. Sure, maybe "maybe" Turbine felt that they just needed to make a mage as  most players were expecting it and they might have felt that it would boos subscriptions. But at some point you have to balance the idea of gaining new players and alienating the players who bought into your original concept in the first place. The more you add that disenfranchises the original concept of the game the more the players who actually decided to stay will realize that what made them stay in the first place is gone.

    I think it is perfectly acceptable for players to express their concern or anger. What is not acceptable expressing this displeasure in a way that is reminiscent of a 6  year old boy.

    This is from the article that I linked, and no-one seems to have bothered to read:

    The Minstrel sings words of Power and the Lore-master finds Power from ancient secrets, but there are more paths than these. Middle-earth is a land where language has Power, and such words are comprised of rune-letters. Put them together in the right order and the world can be changed in subtle and sometimes grand ways. There are some who greatly specialize in such linguistic arts: they are known as Rune-keepers. Their kind had a hand in curiosities like moon-letters, and marvels like the west gate to Moria. In these troubled times, even these normally secluded linguists have stepped up to fight against the Enemy.

    And also :

    Is this Magic?

    A question I know some of you will be asking is "Does the Rune-keeper use magic?" The answer is a little yes, and a little no. In Tolkien's world, and in our world, ‘magic' is a term for explaining things that are not well understood. A perfect example of this is when Sam was offered to look in Galadriel's Mirror:

    'And you? ' she said, turning to Sam. 'For this is what your folk would call magic. I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel.'

    Rune-keepers utilize the Power of writing and of words to change small bits of the world. There are some who would call this magic, while others would call this the natural way of things.

    It is worth mentioning that of the races of Middle-earth, only Elves and Dwarves have such innate Power. No Man or hobbit scribe could harness the power of runes in these ways; such talents are not part of their nature. Yet to an Elf, such things can be as natural as breathing.

     

    So I will say it again.  Rune-keepers aren't going to be any more out of line with the lore than a Loremaster or Minsterel.  

    By the time you are 20, as a Loremaster you are doing stuff that is impossible to justify outside of it being some sort of nature based magic. I don't remember anyone from the books that could smite their foes with gusts of wind, or that could somehow convince earth tremors to strike the exact spot that they need.   The only one that could convince lighting to strike where they wanted it too was Gandalf, that is a LM ability.  "Artistic representation" or not the LM is a huge stretch.

    So you either got pissed and left already, or you should be ok with the Runekeeper.   

     

     

    I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,462Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Yeebo

    Originally posted by Sovrath



     

    hmm, I disagree. At least to a point. The lore master essentially is a bit far reaching but utilizes abilities that might not be understood by the denizens of middle earth.

    It's tough to quantify because it's not "magic" per se but the results are magic like. Also, to that end, there is "magic" it just doesn't evince itself like DnD fire balls and lightning from the sky in the books.

    The Minstrel uses song to inspire and to influence the outcome of battles. Since music is a powerful convention in the book it makes sense to have a character that can do this. Still a bit of a stretch but there it is.

    The rune keeper shoots lightning from his fingers. So enough said.

    And though WSIMike is correct that the game developers don't make such decisions without a lot of careful thought and he is also right that the level of entitlement and crying in mmo's is far beyond anything that could be considered acceptable for adult society, I feel he is wrong in stating that just because someone is unhappy with the direction a game is going that hey are whiners and feeling entitled.

    LOTRO was presented as a game that was going to stick to the world of J.R.R. Tolkien as much as was possible and still create an online game. Now, hardcore Tolkien fans just couldn't get their mind around the fact that this wasn't going to be a Lord of the Rings simulator (and why would they think any game developer would ever and could ever create such a thing? And make it commercially viable?) and pvp players just couldn't deal with the fact that they weren't going to be able to camp out the shire and pick off hobbits.

    However some middle ground (no pun intended) had to be found that made the game "a game" and still be "The Lord of the Rings".

    It seems that they have slipped a bit and people are concerned. I myself am concerned as the game that I have become a founder for might change to something that I would never become a founder for.

    So I feel it's acceptable for players to complain. Sure, maybe "maybe" Turbine felt that they just needed to make a mage as  most players were expecting it and they might have felt that it would boos subscriptions. But at some point you have to balance the idea of gaining new players and alienating the players who bought into your original concept in the first place. The more you add that disenfranchises the original concept of the game the more the players who actually decided to stay will realize that what made them stay in the first place is gone.

    I think it is perfectly acceptable for players to express their concern or anger. What is not acceptable expressing this displeasure in a way that is reminiscent of a 6  year old boy.

    This is from the article that I linked, and no-one seems to have bothered to read:

    The Minstrel sings words of Power and the Lore-master finds Power from ancient secrets, but there are more paths than these. Middle-earth is a land where language has Power, and such words are comprised of rune-letters. Put them together in the right order and the world can be changed in subtle and sometimes grand ways. There are some who greatly specialize in such linguistic arts: they are known as Rune-keepers. Their kind had a hand in curiosities like moon-letters, and marvels like the west gate to Moria. In these troubled times, even these normally secluded linguists have stepped up to fight against the Enemy.

    And also :

    Is this Magic?

    A question I know some of you will be asking is "Does the Rune-keeper use magic?" The answer is a little yes, and a little no. In Tolkien's world, and in our world, ‘magic' is a term for explaining things that are not well understood. A perfect example of this is when Sam was offered to look in Galadriel's Mirror:

    'And you? ' she said, turning to Sam. 'For this is what your folk would call magic. I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel.'

    Rune-keepers utilize the Power of writing and of words to change small bits of the world. There are some who would call this magic, while others would call this the natural way of things.

    It is worth mentioning that of the races of Middle-earth, only Elves and Dwarves have such innate Power. No Man or hobbit scribe could harness the power of runes in these ways; such talents are not part of their nature. Yet to an Elf, such things can be as natural as breathing.

     

    So I will say it again.  Rune-keepers aren't going to be any more out of line with the lore than a Loremaster or Minsterel.  

    By the time you are 20, as a Loremaster you are doing stuff that is impossible to justify outside of it being some sort of nature based magic. I don't remember anyone from the books that had a friendly attack lynx, or that could somehow convince earth tremors to strike the exact spot that they need.   The only one that could convince lighting to strike where they wanted it too was Gandalf, that is a LM ability.  "Artistic representation" or not the LM is a huge stretch for the lore.

    So you either got pissed and left already, or you should be ok with the Runekeeper.   

     

     



     

    Yes, I did read it. Twice.

    There is still no reason why there is a nuking class in middle earth, regardless of where one argues that power comes from. Which I feel is sort of silly as it's "magic'. It doesn't exist but there is of course a sort of method to how it might be possible for it to exist.

    Minstels don't nuke (as far as I know!) and Lore masters utilize simple science for their attacks. Which is about as much as I was willing to stretch.

    So "no" I didn't get pissed and leave when they gave the LM what the LM had but I wasn't happy with it. I am more "not happy" with the Rune Keeper.

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