I think you're in denial of the facts. The tentonhammer guys saw the game, did the interview, and reported it on their own website as occurring at E3. The same guys recently reported on the WOW WotLK expansion - are they faking that too? ...unless you're suggesting they're in on this world-wide Darkfall conspiracy or whatever crazy notion you believe. The facts speak for themselves.
The fact is, the TTH DF interview was an INTERVIEW and they did NOT play the game. You cant make up your own "facts".
Did you even read the articles you linked? In the WotLK article, the first thing they say is that they got to sit down and try the game. In the DF interview, they say no such thing.
And again: what I'm arguing here is not whether or not DF will make it to the stores; I'm trying to refute the unsubstantiated claims, made by some people here and in other fora, that Aventurine doesn't have a product to publish.
For the reasons explained above, Aventurine must have a product to publish, in order to sign a publishing deal with a company listed in the stock market. Now how good that product is, and whether it will actually manage to release, is a different story...
Wrong, there's nothing about 'MUST' in it. All they have/had to do is talk to the distributor and impress them enough for that company to agree to distribute the game when it's finished.
None of us here are even saying that Adventurine doesn't have a game in some degree of development. What we are saying is that until some form of game either reaches beta or hits the shelves then it IS vaporware. I could sit here all day telling you about all the programs and games I've written. However, until someone other than myself has seen any of them then they too are vaporware.
Lastly, to sum up, you CAN have a publishing deal with no product other than an idea. The stock market has no bearing on the matter.
I remember Darfall being at E3 before... They " forgot " the demo and so only had a booth.
I think it was the other way around. They did have the demo at E3.
There you go again.
Virtually everything you say is twisted and incorrect on purpose, I can only surmise. You haven't been correct about anything to do with this game yet. And... Seeing as how we're approaching August, with a game releasing in 2008, it looks like your record will remain intact come the end of year.
The truth. They have NEVER, EVER shown Darkfall to the masses, EVER, ANYWHERE!
Yes, that includes E3 and is WELL documented for anyone to look up on the Internet.
LOTS and LOTS of professional gaming sites attend E3. It is a HUGE event in the industry. Where are all the articles mentioning the Darkfall demo? Please show us where we can read them.
- shows they had a playable demo at E3 2006. OK so maybe the public didn't get to play it.
Don't know if you know but in the last couple of years E3 has seen a huge split of game developers - Blizzard/Activision or whatever they are now calling themselves for instance no longer go there. It's basically Microsoft vs Nintendo vs Sony and heaps of console crap.
There was no demo, they sat there and piched the design concepts. It's quite clear in the article too that it was only a verbal explination of what they hoped to achieve in DF.
I think you're in denial of the facts. The tentonhammer guys saw the game, did the interview, and reported it on their own website as occurring at E3. The same guys recently reported on the WOW WotLK expansion - are they faking that too? ...unless you're suggesting they're in on this world-wide Darkfall conspiracy or whatever crazy notion you believe. The facts speak for themselves.
The fact is, the TTH DF interview was an INTERVIEW and they did NOT play the game. You cant make up your own "facts".
Did you even read the articles you linked? In the WotLK article, the first thing they say is that they got to sit down and try the game. In the DF interview, they say no such thing.
So, yes, the actual facts speak for themselves.
I didn't say they played it, I said "saw" the game, which if you look at the first picture you'll see a picture of the guy sitting in front of the laptop. The title of the article is "First impressions", implying they saw the game. If they didn't see the game it would have been called an interview. The text "their physics and combat system are very realistic" is first person and also strongly suggests they saw the game. Lastly, interviews given by the Darkfall devs indicate they took a standalone demo version of the game to the event.
Yes facts do speak for themselves when you use your eyes and common sense. Not to mention there are other first-person accounts of people who have seen and/or played the game.
None of us here are even saying that Adventurine doesn't have a game in some degree of development. What we are saying is that until some form of game either reaches beta or hits the shelves then it IS vaporware. I could sit here all day telling you about all the programs and games I've written. However, until someone other than myself has seen any of them then they too are vaporware.
So every unreleased game in existence is vaporware? mmm OK
Note that other people have seen and played Darkfall so by your own definition, Darkfall is not vaporware.
And again: what I'm arguing here is not whether or not DF will make it to the stores; I'm trying to refute the unsubstantiated claims, made by some people here and in other fora, that Aventurine doesn't have a product to publish.
For the reasons explained above, Aventurine must have a product to publish, in order to sign a publishing deal with a company listed in the stock market. Now how good that product is, and whether it will actually manage to release, is a different story...
Wrong, there's nothing about 'MUST' in it. All they have/had to do is talk to the distributor and impress them enough for that company to agree to distribute the game when it's finished.
None of us here are even saying that Adventurine doesn't have a game in some degree of development. What we are saying is that until some form of game either reaches beta or hits the shelves then it IS vaporware. I could sit here all day telling you about all the programs and games I've written. However, until someone other than myself has seen any of them then they too are vaporware.
Lastly, to sum up, you CAN have a publishing deal with no product other than an idea. The stock market has no bearing on the matter.
That actually depends on the distributor. If a developer doesn't have a publisher the better distributors will insist on a development contract where certain conditions of quality need to be meet before they distribute it.
Wow... another year of nothing. It still amazes me the stupidity that people possess in these Darkfall forums. Defending what you believe in is one thing.. but even being proven wrong and getting your nose shoved into it doesn't change your mind. It's like everyone and everything points to the fact that grass is green, yet some of you still believe that it is yellow and that one day, the grass will change and we'll all be proven wrong. Yes, piss is yellow too, that's about the only way it's going to change =P
This game has been in development for almost a decade. Does anyone know what a decade is? I'll tell you! It's 10 freaking years. How many games have been developed after that? I'll venture to guess that very few have pulled that off, if any. And certainly not a MMO of any kind. They promise a 2003 release, you get nothing. 2004 release, you get nothing. 2005 release, again, nothing. And in 2006 you think you see a glimmer of hope, nope.. nothing. 2007? No. It's now 2008 and they have yet again missed the biggest gaming convention of the year. Even the smallest, crappiest game companies with horrible games come to this event. It is the mack daddy of events. Yet, Darkfall can't even manage to show up. I would have felt better if they just said... "Hey, we're here! Sorry, no presentations! But, we're here!"... So.. they either can't afford a booth, or they don't have a game, a logical analysis would dictate.
Yet, whenever Vaporware is mentioned, it's met with scorn and hot tempers. Ignorance doesn't even describe the steadfast denial of these Darkfall fans. It's more like borderline insanity. This is why I'm putting the next bit at the bottom, just to see how many people actually read through before resorting to personal attacks. I personally believe that if this game is made, it should be great. I'm an old UO'er. I love this type of play style. If it hit the shelves tomorrow, I'd be there with box in hand at the register. You better believe it. That said, I'm not stupid. I'm not going to make myself look like an absolute moron because I like what Darkfall has promised.. forget the fact that they've broken their promise about 10 times now. Until this company shows the gamer fans respect. Unless this company interacts with the community as if we are actually people. Until this company stands at E3 or has a press release of ANY significance. Unless I see anything other than broken promises... This game is...
I think you're in denial of the facts. The tentonhammer guys saw the game, did the interview, and reported it on their own website as occurring at E3. The same guys recently reported on the WOW WotLK expansion - are they faking that too? ...unless you're suggesting they're in on this world-wide Darkfall conspiracy or whatever crazy notion you believe. The facts speak for themselves.
The fact is, the TTH DF interview was an INTERVIEW and they did NOT play the game. You cant make up your own "facts".
Did you even read the articles you linked? In the WotLK article, the first thing they say is that they got to sit down and try the game. In the DF interview, they say no such thing.
So, yes, the actual facts speak for themselves.
I didn't say they played it, I said "saw" the game, which if you look at the first picture you'll see a picture of the guy sitting in front of the laptop. The title of the article is "First impressions", implying they saw the game. If they didn't see the game it would have been called an interview. The text "their physics and combat system are very realistic" is first person and also strongly suggests they saw the game. Lastly, interviews given by the Darkfall devs indicate they took a standalone demo version of the game to the event.
Yes facts do speak for themselves when you use your eyes and common sense. Not to mention there are other first-person accounts of people who have seen and/or played the game.
A lot of people say plenty of things. Did they show you a video or exclusive never seen before screenshots? Did they perhaps show you some great innovative feature? Did they even take a picture of a computer with the game running on it? Anything? No? Okay.. wonderful. I'm glad we got that out of the way.
I didn't say they played it, I said "saw" the game, which if you look at the first picture you'll see a picture of the guy sitting in front of the laptop. The title of the article is "First impressions", implying they saw the game. If they didn't see the game it would have been called an interview. The text "their physics and combat system are very realistic" is first person and also strongly suggests they saw the game. Lastly, interviews given by the Darkfall devs indicate they took a standalone demo version of the game to the event. Yes facts do speak for themselves when you use your eyes and common sense. Not to mention there are other first-person accounts of people who have seen and/or played the game.
The DF guys had a video of the game, IIRC. But again, the facts are this: TTH never said they played the game, a demo, or even that they were shown a video at E3 in 2006. In other circumstances where they DID play a game, they were certain to mention it.
If we want to read between the lines, I would say whatever TTH saw, if anything, it was something they didnt think was worth mentioning. Likely being courteous. But sometimes what you DONT say is just as important as what you do say.
First person accounts of gameplay are also quite...strange. The only one I know of, is Asp. He posted on the DF boards, and on his guild site almost a year ago, and has not been heard from since. Seems odd to me, as being the one guy that has actually played the game (and loved it) you would think he might be more involved. Of course, that doesnt mean he didnt play the game, it just means I think it odd. Bringing news of the 'holy grail' and then disappearing doesnt seem typical to me.
The only year Darkfall showed up at E3 they had nothing more then a booth to show of the game. There was no demo or anything other then some screenshots and paper info of the game. This year they didn't even bother to show up at E3. Doesn't much sound like a game that is anywhere near launch.
Nope, not vaporware. They have a European publisher/distributer. And old and well respected company that announced to its stock holders that it would be distributing the game, as law states they must. (gotta keep the investors in on whats going on)
So as of now (and I'm sick or repeating it, but something has to counter the years of idiodic trolls going "lol vaporz") they are not vaporware. I'm very surprised anyone believed they were, cause the evidence has always been there, people just chose to ignore it.
Now the only question is, what state is the game in? Will it deliver what it promised? Will it suck? Will it be amazing? We'll see soon, I hope. I'm not getting my hopes up though.
I agree that Darkfall is not total vaporware. There is actually some code there somewhere to be sure.
But.. They DON'T have a distributor. Not really. That was a ploy by Tasos to buy more time.
Are you KIDDING ME?! WHY would someone go to all this trouble. To buy time? You don't sign a publisher deal with a game that they haven't seen. They have a publisher, the publisher agreed to sell the game in Europe, they told their stock holders. How can you possibly fight this so hard?
There are a lot of companies that did not choose to attend E3 this year. It has become pretty much a waste of time. If the developers of DF choose not to show up, it is their dollar. I won't get into the debate over whether DF will ever see the light of day or not. E3 has nothing to do with that debate.
The only year Darkfall showed up at E3 they had nothing more then a booth to show of the game. There was no demo or anything other then some screenshots and paper info of the game. This year they didn't even bother to show up at E3. Doesn't much sound like a game that is anywhere near launch.
Nope, not vaporware. They have a European publisher/distributer. And old and well respected company that announced to its stock holders that it would be distributing the game, as law states they must. (gotta keep the investors in on whats going on)
So as of now (and I'm sick or repeating it, but something has to counter the years of idiodic trolls going "lol vaporz") they are not vaporware. I'm very surprised anyone believed they were, cause the evidence has always been there, people just chose to ignore it.
Now the only question is, what state is the game in? Will it deliver what it promised? Will it suck? Will it be amazing? We'll see soon, I hope. I'm not getting my hopes up though.
I agree that Darkfall is not total vaporware. There is actually some code there somewhere to be sure.
But.. They DON'T have a distributor. Not really. That was a ploy by Tasos to buy more time.
Are you KIDDING ME?! WHY would someone go to all this trouble. To buy time? You don't sign a publisher deal with a game that they haven't seen. They have a publisher, the publisher agreed to sell the game in Europe, they told their stock holders. How can you possibly fight this so hard?
You can sign a publisher deal with games you/they haven't seen before, it's been done numerous times in the past, it just usually requires ample credentials but that's not the case here. Why do you not understand that they haven't signed a publishing deal? When and where have they told their stock holders that they agreed to sell Darkfall Online in Europe? What promise or commitment did they make to their stock holders that they would be breaking by not publishing Darkfall Online?
The only year Darkfall showed up at E3 they had nothing more then a booth to show of the game. There was no demo or anything other then some screenshots and paper info of the game. This year they didn't even bother to show up at E3. Doesn't much sound like a game that is anywhere near launch.
Nope, not vaporware. They have a European publisher/distributer. And old and well respected company that announced to its stock holders that it would be distributing the game, as law states they must. (gotta keep the investors in on whats going on)
So as of now (and I'm sick or repeating it, but something has to counter the years of idiodic trolls going "lol vaporz") they are not vaporware. I'm very surprised anyone believed they were, cause the evidence has always been there, people just chose to ignore it.
Now the only question is, what state is the game in? Will it deliver what it promised? Will it suck? Will it be amazing? We'll see soon, I hope. I'm not getting my hopes up though.
I agree that Darkfall is not total vaporware. There is actually some code there somewhere to be sure.
But.. They DON'T have a distributor. Not really. That was a ploy by Tasos to buy more time.
Are you KIDDING ME?! WHY would someone go to all this trouble. To buy time? You don't sign a publisher deal with a game that they haven't seen. They have a publisher, the publisher agreed to sell the game in Europe, they told their stock holders. How can you possibly fight this so hard?
You can sign a publisher deal with games you/they haven't seen before, it's been done numerous times in the past, it just usually requires ample credentials but that's not the case here. Why do you not understand that they haven't signed a publishing deal? When and where have they told their stock holders that they agreed to sell Darkfall Online in Europe? What promise or commitment did they make to their stock holders that they would be breaking by not publishing Darkfall Online?
Well you've made this easier, you've proved that you have no idea what you're talking about. They picked up Audiovisuals as a publisher, an old and well respected European company. It can be read here:
And here's what Tasos had to say about it. (Note, Darkfall people FOUND this article before it was even announced. So none of this bull about "fabricated" articles.
"I see the community has already discovered a couple of news items so I'll briefly comment on them:
As we've mentioned before we had been working on a self-publishing deal, and we've signed with AudioVisual Enterprises to work with us on the European distribution end of Darkfall's publishing. We will make an official announcement on this when it's time for it. Being a public company they are obligated to make a report of their dealings to the stock market and that's the announcement you read about. We're very happy to be working with them especially since we participate in the management of the project."
The only year Darkfall showed up at E3 they had nothing more then a booth to show of the game. There was no demo or anything other then some screenshots and paper info of the game. This year they didn't even bother to show up at E3. Doesn't much sound like a game that is anywhere near launch.
Nope, not vaporware. They have a European publisher/distributer. And old and well respected company that announced to its stock holders that it would be distributing the game, as law states they must. (gotta keep the investors in on whats going on)
So as of now (and I'm sick or repeating it, but something has to counter the years of idiodic trolls going "lol vaporz") they are not vaporware. I'm very surprised anyone believed they were, cause the evidence has always been there, people just chose to ignore it.
Now the only question is, what state is the game in? Will it deliver what it promised? Will it suck? Will it be amazing? We'll see soon, I hope. I'm not getting my hopes up though.
I agree that Darkfall is not total vaporware. There is actually some code there somewhere to be sure.
But.. They DON'T have a distributor. Not really. That was a ploy by Tasos to buy more time.
Are you KIDDING ME?! WHY would someone go to all this trouble. To buy time? You don't sign a publisher deal with a game that they haven't seen. They have a publisher, the publisher agreed to sell the game in Europe, they told their stock holders. How can you possibly fight this so hard?
You can sign a publisher deal with games you/they haven't seen before, it's been done numerous times in the past, it just usually requires ample credentials but that's not the case here. Why do you not understand that they haven't signed a publishing deal? When and where have they told their stock holders that they agreed to sell Darkfall Online in Europe? What promise or commitment did they make to their stock holders that they would be breaking by not publishing Darkfall Online?
Well you've made this easier, you've proved that you have no idea what you're talking about. They picked up Audiovisuals as a publisher, an old and well respected European company. It can be read here:
And here's what Tasos had to say about it. (Note, Darkfall people FOUND this article before it was even announced. So none of this bull about "fabricated" articles.
"I see the community has already discovered a couple of news items so I'll briefly comment on them:
As we've mentioned before we had been working on a self-publishing deal, and we've signed with AudioVisual Enterprises to work with us on the European distribution end of Darkfall's publishing. We will make an official announcement on this when it's time for it. Being a public company they are obligated to make a report of their dealings to the stock market and that's the announcement you read about. We're very happy to be working with them especially since we participate in the management of the project."
Now I ask you to momentarily forget what Tasos told you about the deal, and read what AVE themselves have to say about their own participation. Then read the post you quoted in that perspective.
The only year Darkfall showed up at E3 they had nothing more then a booth to show of the game. There was no demo or anything other then some screenshots and paper info of the game. This year they didn't even bother to show up at E3. Doesn't much sound like a game that is anywhere near launch.
Nope, not vaporware. They have a European publisher/distributer. And old and well respected company that announced to its stock holders that it would be distributing the game, as law states they must. (gotta keep the investors in on whats going on)
So as of now (and I'm sick or repeating it, but something has to counter the years of idiodic trolls going "lol vaporz") they are not vaporware. I'm very surprised anyone believed they were, cause the evidence has always been there, people just chose to ignore it.
Now the only question is, what state is the game in? Will it deliver what it promised? Will it suck? Will it be amazing? We'll see soon, I hope. I'm not getting my hopes up though.
I agree that Darkfall is not total vaporware. There is actually some code there somewhere to be sure.
But.. They DON'T have a distributor. Not really. That was a ploy by Tasos to buy more time.
Are you KIDDING ME?! WHY would someone go to all this trouble. To buy time? You don't sign a publisher deal with a game that they haven't seen. They have a publisher, the publisher agreed to sell the game in Europe, they told their stock holders. How can you possibly fight this so hard?
You can sign a publisher deal with games you/they haven't seen before, it's been done numerous times in the past, it just usually requires ample credentials but that's not the case here. Why do you not understand that they haven't signed a publishing deal? When and where have they told their stock holders that they agreed to sell Darkfall Online in Europe? What promise or commitment did they make to their stock holders that they would be breaking by not publishing Darkfall Online?
Well you've made this easier, you've proved that you have no idea what you're talking about. They picked up Audiovisuals as a publisher, an old and well respected European company. It can be read here:
And here's what Tasos had to say about it. (Note, Darkfall people FOUND this article before it was even announced. So none of this bull about "fabricated" articles.
"I see the community has already discovered a couple of news items so I'll briefly comment on them:
As we've mentioned before we had been working on a self-publishing deal, and we've signed with AudioVisual Enterprises to work with us on the European distribution end of Darkfall's publishing. We will make an official announcement on this when it's time for it. Being a public company they are obligated to make a report of their dealings to the stock market and that's the announcement you read about. We're very happy to be working with them especially since we participate in the management of the project."
Now I ask you to momentarily forget what Tasos told you about the deal, and read what AVE themselves have to say about their own participation. Then read the post you quoted in that perspective.
"The company BUSINESS AND SOUND EIKONOS SA announces training Memorandum of Cooperation with the company AVENTURINE SA, with the sole purpose of printing, distribution and operation of online games subscriber (on line gaming) in all countries of Europe. To this end, the SOUND AND BUSINESS EIKONOS AU will create a new section Gaming Division paying royalties to the above beneficiary than 35% of sales. By exploiting the online games subscriber BUSINESS AND SOUND EIKONOS SA (AVE) estimates that avoids the loss of revenue from any piracy in any form. "
Let's break this down. Sadly with an MoC, it can either be an outline of INTENT, or it can be legally binding, depending on what is outlined in the exact business statement. None of us have access to that. So, I suppose that's left to speculation.
Next part, pretty clear " sole purpose of printing, distribution and operation of online games subscriber (on line gaming) in all countries of Europe" A publisher. They'll be advertising and selling the game to all countries in Europe.
Here's the interesting one. "EIKONOS AU will create a new section Gaming Division paying royalties to the above beneficiary than 35% of sales. By exploiting the online games subscriber BUSINESS AND SOUND EIKONOS SA (AVE) estimates that avoids the loss of revenue from any piracy in any form. "
Ok, with this, two things I want to point out. The company is planning to create an entire new division for video games (they've previously only dealt with other kind of media). This is a pretty serious deal, considering and announcing it will have an impact on their stock, so they wouldn't just do this on a whim, and it also means they're fairly confident they'll be able to make money out of the deal.
The second bit, it that it reassures its investors that there's no danger of piracy. They're talking directly to their stock holders here. Again, they wouldn't make that kind of announcement and then not do ANYTHING, because any active investors will watch this company's news feed and buy and sell accordingly. Creating a division for an entire new group of media, then telling the stock holders not to worry about it, they're just not "thinking about it if maybe it ever happens."
That's my two cents anyway. I could be COMPLETELY wrong, but what I know about the business world, that is how I interpret it.
The only year Darkfall showed up at E3 they had nothing more then a booth to show of the game. There was no demo or anything other then some screenshots and paper info of the game. This year they didn't even bother to show up at E3. Doesn't much sound like a game that is anywhere near launch.
Nope, not vaporware. They have a European publisher/distributer. And old and well respected company that announced to its stock holders that it would be distributing the game, as law states they must. (gotta keep the investors in on whats going on)
So as of now (and I'm sick or repeating it, but something has to counter the years of idiodic trolls going "lol vaporz") they are not vaporware. I'm very surprised anyone believed they were, cause the evidence has always been there, people just chose to ignore it.
Now the only question is, what state is the game in? Will it deliver what it promised? Will it suck? Will it be amazing? We'll see soon, I hope. I'm not getting my hopes up though.
I agree that Darkfall is not total vaporware. There is actually some code there somewhere to be sure.
But.. They DON'T have a distributor. Not really. That was a ploy by Tasos to buy more time.
Are you KIDDING ME?! WHY would someone go to all this trouble. To buy time? You don't sign a publisher deal with a game that they haven't seen. They have a publisher, the publisher agreed to sell the game in Europe, they told their stock holders. How can you possibly fight this so hard?
You can sign a publisher deal with games you/they haven't seen before, it's been done numerous times in the past, it just usually requires ample credentials but that's not the case here. Why do you not understand that they haven't signed a publishing deal? When and where have they told their stock holders that they agreed to sell Darkfall Online in Europe? What promise or commitment did they make to their stock holders that they would be breaking by not publishing Darkfall Online?
Well you've made this easier, you've proved that you have no idea what you're talking about. They picked up Audiovisuals as a publisher, an old and well respected European company. It can be read here:
And here's what Tasos had to say about it. (Note, Darkfall people FOUND this article before it was even announced. So none of this bull about "fabricated" articles.
"I see the community has already discovered a couple of news items so I'll briefly comment on them:
As we've mentioned before we had been working on a self-publishing deal, and we've signed with AudioVisual Enterprises to work with us on the European distribution end of Darkfall's publishing. We will make an official announcement on this when it's time for it. Being a public company they are obligated to make a report of their dealings to the stock market and that's the announcement you read about. We're very happy to be working with them especially since we participate in the management of the project."
Now I ask you to momentarily forget what Tasos told you about the deal, and read what AVE themselves have to say about their own participation. Then read the post you quoted in that perspective.
"The company BUSINESS AND SOUND EIKONOS SA announces training Memorandum of Cooperation with the company AVENTURINE SA, with the sole purpose of printing, distribution and operation of online games subscriber (on line gaming) in all countries of Europe. To this end, the SOUND AND BUSINESS EIKONOS AU will create a new section Gaming Division paying royalties to the above beneficiary than 35% of sales. By exploiting the online games subscriber BUSINESS AND SOUND EIKONOS SA (AVE) estimates that avoids the loss of revenue from any piracy in any form. "
Let's break this down. Sadly with an MoC, it can either be an outline of INTENT, or it can be legally binding, depending on what is outlined in the exact business statement. None of us have access to that. So, I suppose that's left to speculation.
Next part, pretty clear " sole purpose of printing, distribution and operation of online games subscriber (on line gaming) in all countries of Europe" A publisher. They'll be advertising and selling the game to all countries in Europe.
Here's the interesting one. "EIKONOS AU will create a new section Gaming Division paying royalties to the above beneficiary than 35% of sales. By exploiting the online games subscriber BUSINESS AND SOUND EIKONOS SA (AVE) estimates that avoids the loss of revenue from any piracy in any form. "
Ok, with this, two things I want to point out. The company is planning to create an entire new division for video games (they've previously only dealt with other kind of media). This is a pretty serious deal, considering and announcing it will have an impact on their stock, so they wouldn't just do this on a whim, and it also means they're fairly confident they'll be able to make money out of the deal.
The second bit, it that it reassures its investors that there's no danger of piracy. They're talking directly to their stock holders here. Again, they wouldn't make that kind of announcement and then not do ANYTHING, because any active investors will watch this company's news feed and buy and sell accordingly. Creating a division for an entire new group of media, then telling the stock holders not to worry about it, they're just not "thinking about it if maybe it ever happens."
That's my two cents anyway. I could be COMPLETELY wrong, but what I know about the business world, that is how I interpret it.
Ok, I just wanted to quote this message because it's so big and I thought it would be a cool thing to do.
"The company BUSINESS AND SOUND EIKONOS SA announces training Memorandum of Cooperation with the company AVENTURINE SA, with the sole purpose of printing, distribution and operation of online games subscriber (on line gaming) in all countries of Europe. To this end, the SOUND AND BUSINESS EIKONOS AU will create a new section Gaming Division paying royalties to the above beneficiary than 35% of sales. By exploiting the online games subscriber BUSINESS AND SOUND EIKONOS SA (AVE) estimates that avoids the loss of revenue from any piracy in any form. "
Let's break this down. Sadly with an MoC, it can either be an outline of INTENT, or it can be legally binding, depending on what is outlined in the exact business statement. None of us have access to that. So, I suppose that's left to speculation. Next part, pretty clear " sole purpose of printing, distribution and operation of online games subscriber (on line gaming) in all countries of Europe" A publisher. They'll be advertising and selling the game to all countries in Europe.
Here's the interesting one. "EIKONOS AU will create a new section Gaming Division paying royalties to the above beneficiary than 35% of sales. By exploiting the online games subscriber BUSINESS AND SOUND EIKONOS SA (AVE) estimates that avoids the loss of revenue from any piracy in any form. " Ok, with this, two things I want to point out. The company is planning to create an entire new division for video games (they've previously only dealt with other kind of media). This is a pretty serious deal, considering and announcing it will have an impact on their stock, so they wouldn't just do this on a whim, and it also means they're fairly confident they'll be able to make money out of the deal. The second bit, it that it reassures its investors that there's no danger of piracy. They're talking directly to their stock holders here. Again, they wouldn't make that kind of announcement and then not do ANYTHING, because any active investors will watch this company's news feed and buy and sell accordingly. Creating a division for an entire new group of media, then telling the stock holders not to worry about it, they're just not "thinking about it if maybe it ever happens." That's my two cents anyway. I could be COMPLETELY wrong, but what I know about the business world, that is how I interpret it.
Alright, now that you've read, do you understand that while they are contemplating the creation of this new division (You forgot to copy and paste the "to that end" that links the two statements together), they have not announced any deals regarding the publishing of Darkfall Online? Nowhere does it say that they will be publishing Darkfall Online, or any games whatsoever.
"Again, they wouldn't make that kind of announcement and then not do ANYTHING, because any active investors will watch this company's news feed and buy and sell accordingly."
Not saying they would or will, but they can. Press releases for considerations and negotiations are done all over the place, and a lot never go through, there's plenty of precedent. By telling their shareholders they're exploring certain possibilities they're not committing to actually partaking in them.
If their intent was to sign a legally enforceable agreement to publish one/any of Aventurine's games, and they are fairly confident they'll be able to make money out of the deal, why a MoU and not a contract and a clear announcement of it.
It's good you've gone from "They have a game because they have a publishing deal" to "None of us have access to that. So, I suppose that's left to speculation.", it shows progress, but I'll tell you one thing, if it's open to interpretation (especially to shareholders) then it's nothing solid. If they had a deal they would have announced it, no speculation necessary.
EDIT: The purpose of the MoU is not the slightest bit unclear, that's never been a source of debate.
Originally posted by SignusM Originally posted by ElgarL Originally posted by SignusM Nope, not vaporware. They have a European publisher/distributer. And old and well respected company that announced to its stock holders that it would be distributing the game, as law states they must. (gotta keep the investors in on whats going on)So as of now (and I'm sick or repeating it, but something has to counter the years of idiodic trolls going "lol vaporz") they are not vaporware. I'm very surprised anyone believed they were, cause the evidence has always been there, people just chose to ignore it.
Now the only question is, what state is the game in? Will it deliver what it promised? Will it suck? Will it be amazing? We'll see soon, I hope. I'm not getting my hopes up though.
It IS vaporware, right up until the time they either release or at least have a beta. A distribution deal means absolutely nothing. All it does mean is that they have talked to a distributor and signed an agreement so that WHEN/IF something ever gets onto a CD then the distributor will be shipping it out. I could go out tomorrow and sign an agreement with a distributor on a product that does't exist. It only has to be an idea for you to make plans and agreements. Are you kidding me? Well with that brilliant logic, no game on earth exists until it hits store shelves! How did it get there then? Hmm, a paradox. I mean, are you even listening to yourself? That company would not agree to spend THEIR MONEY publishing something that DOESN'T exist. It exists. A THOUSAND TIMES it exists! I'm not defending the QUALITY of the game. I have no idea what its going to be like or if they'll make their launch date. But IT EXISTS!!!
Seriously, this is no random company. This company has been around a loooong time, distributing all kinds of multimedia. They're not going to tell their stock holders they're selling a game that doesn't even exist. They're not signing a deal with thin air.
Sure it exists as a 3d screensaver you can download later when they announce they never had a game to begin with or the staff to even make such a thing. Problem with their publisher is Aventurine SA owns 35% of it and supports a new gaming division in the company and thus it isn't just the publisher's money so it means nothing and thus no one is giving Aventurine credit because of this move. Just blowing smoke in everyone's direction.
[[ DEAD ]] - Funny - I deleted my account on the site using the cancel account button. Forum user is separate and still exists with no way of deleting it. Delete it admins. Do it, this ends now.
"The company BUSINESS AND SOUND EIKONOS SA announces training Memorandum of Cooperation with the company AVENTURINE SA, with the sole purpose of printing, distribution and operation of online games subscriber (on line gaming) in all countries of Europe. To this end, the SOUND AND BUSINESS EIKONOS AU will create a new section Gaming Division paying royalties to the above beneficiary than 35% of sales. By exploiting the online games subscriber BUSINESS AND SOUND EIKONOS SA (AVE) estimates that avoids the loss of revenue from any piracy in any form. "
Let's break this down. Sadly with an MoC, it can either be an outline of INTENT, or it can be legally binding, depending on what is outlined in the exact business statement. None of us have access to that. So, I suppose that's left to speculation. Next part, pretty clear " sole purpose of printing, distribution and operation of online games subscriber (on line gaming) in all countries of Europe" A publisher. They'll be advertising and selling the game to all countries in Europe.
Here's the interesting one. "EIKONOS AU will create a new section Gaming Division paying royalties to the above beneficiary than 35% of sales. By exploiting the online games subscriber BUSINESS AND SOUND EIKONOS SA (AVE) estimates that avoids the loss of revenue from any piracy in any form. " Ok, with this, two things I want to point out. The company is planning to create an entire new division for video games (they've previously only dealt with other kind of media). This is a pretty serious deal, considering and announcing it will have an impact on their stock, so they wouldn't just do this on a whim, and it also means they're fairly confident they'll be able to make money out of the deal. The second bit, it that it reassures its investors that there's no danger of piracy. They're talking directly to their stock holders here. Again, they wouldn't make that kind of announcement and then not do ANYTHING, because any active investors will watch this company's news feed and buy and sell accordingly. Creating a division for an entire new group of media, then telling the stock holders not to worry about it, they're just not "thinking about it if maybe it ever happens." That's my two cents anyway. I could be COMPLETELY wrong, but what I know about the business world, that is how I interpret it.
Alright, now that you've read, do you understand that while they are contemplating the creation of this new division (You forgot to copy and paste the "to that end" that links the two statements together), they have not announced any deals regarding the publishing of Darkfall Online? Nowhere does it say that they will be publishing Darkfall Online, or any games whatsoever.
"Again, they wouldn't make that kind of announcement and then not do ANYTHING, because any active investors will watch this company's news feed and buy and sell accordingly."
Not saying they would or will, but they can. Press releases for considerations and negotiations are done all over the place, and a lot never go through, there's plenty of precedent. By telling their shareholders they're exploring certain possibilities they're not committing to actually partaking in them.
If their intent was to sign a legally enforceable agreement to publish one/any of Aventurine's games, and they are fairly confident they'll be able to make money out of the deal, why a MoU and not a contract and a clear announcement of it.
It's good you've gone from "They have a game because they have a publishing deal" to "None of us have access to that. So, I suppose that's left to speculation.", it shows progress, but I'll tell you one thing, if it's open to interpretation (especially to shareholders) then it's nothing solid. If they had a deal they would have announced it, no speculation necessary.
EDIT: The purpose of the MoU is not the slightest bit unclear, that's never been a source of debate.
Unfortunately I agree. Tasos did say that he would announce something finite when he can, hopefully it will be soon. At least YOU'VE progressed enough past the point of thinking its all just vaporware. Though the text does say any MMORPG by Aventurine. Unless they're working on something else, I'm pretty sure its clear what the game in question is :P
As for Hashbrick, this discussion was going in the direction of intelligent words, why'd you have to derail it? We don't know anything yet other than the game exists, it will probably release (there would be no monetary benefit to abandoning it here), hopefully will release in 2008 with its features intact. If not, then the MMO world has lost one of its only chances at a quality game thats not a big company WoW clone.
Originally posted by SignusM As for Hashbrick, this discussion was going in the direction of intelligent words, why'd you have to derail it? We don't know anything yet other than the game exists, it will probably release (there would be no monetary benefit to abandoning it here), hopefully will release in 2008 with its features intact. If not, then the MMO world has lost one of its only chances at a quality game thats not a big company WoW clone.
You realize I quoted a different post of yours within this thread right? I just proved how much that publishing partnership doesn't mean squat and the best you can come up with is we don't know anything other than the game exists. We don't even know if the game exist so let's not start saying things that are untrue.
Aventurine owns 35% of the publisher and formed the gaming division in those eyes Aventurine can say what ever they please since they run the division. So clearly they could be publishing thin-air!
[[ DEAD ]] - Funny - I deleted my account on the site using the cancel account button. Forum user is separate and still exists with no way of deleting it. Delete it admins. Do it, this ends now.
I've never thought it was vaporware in the strictest sense of the word. If the opinion you've given elsewhere is honest, then we pretty much have the same opinion. I think there's a game, but I don't know what state is in. Some of Tasos' claims have been too outlandish (the framerate in 100v100 battle with those graphics, for one, or the community description at the greek conference) for me to take in at face value, so I doubt. But I'd be pleasantly surprised if they all turn out to be true. The problem is I'm a stickler, to OCD levels, for objectivity. I don't like ambiguity, and whenever someone is taking speculation for fact (which granted you're not, otherwise this wouldn't have been nearly as congenial) or taking whatever as conclusive evidence of anything, I feel compelled to remind them it isn't.
I too think AVE will end up being the European distributor, I just wanted to make sure it's clear that at the moment nothing is certain, because otherwise others (supporters or detractors, look at HashBrick, what he said gives the impression he didn't even read the press release) will take it as gospel written on stone and use it as definite proof to back up their arguments.
In the end the best that can happen is that Darkfall releases this year while being feature complete, having great content and few bugs and hitches, and being a blast to play, so let's hope for that, but at the same time let's expect and prepare for the worst.
If you want to argue about the deal between Aventurine and Audio Visual Enterprises, please refrain from straying too much from common sense.
An announcement to the stock market is an official announcement; AVE will be running the new Gaming Division, not Aventurine, and they will be giving 35% of sales income to them (compared to the standard 15% of sales that other distributors do normally). That, to any open-minded person, means a publishing deal is at hand; it's not final due to all the bureaucratic crap one has to go through to form that division and get all pertaining permits.
If, on the other hand, you think that the game not being at stores yet, signifies there being no publishing deal, then I'm sorry but the discussion is simply an irrational contradiction without any argumentation...
@Silvarch: yes, it is not final and anything could happen between now and scheduled release (even cancelling of the project)...but I highly doubt it, barring any acts of God of course...
That's the point exactly. If it's not final then there is no deal. It does not preclude there being one in the near future, because that's what negotiation and intent try to turn into, but it does not mean there is one now. Even if you highly doubt it won't be realized (in fact, me too, unless whatever Aventurine has doesn't meet AVE's standards, which is hard to imagine given they're new to the industry themselves, and if they're negotiating then they obviously liked something) the possibility is still there, so you can't state it as a certainty until it happens.
EDIT: I'm talking about a publishing deal, not release. While related, they're still independent (ie. a deal could be made and there could be no release, or the deal doesn't go through but they release through other means).
Originally posted by Galadourn @HashBrick If you want to argue about the deal between Aventurine and Audio Visual Enterprises, please refrain from straying too much from common sense.
An announcement to the stock market is an official announcement; AVE will be running the new Gaming Division, not Aventurine, and they will be giving 35% of sales income to them (compared to the standard 15% of sales that other distributors do normally). That, to any open-minded person, means a publishing deal is at hand; it's not final due to all the bureaucratic crap one has to go through to form that division and get all pertaining permits.
If, on the other hand, you think that the game not being at stores yet, signifies there being no publishing deal, then I'm sorry but the discussion is simply an irrational contradiction without any argumentation...
@Silvarch: yes, it is not final and anything could happen between now and scheduled release (even cancelling of the project)...but I highly doubt it, barring any acts of God of course...
You can take it however you want, you can flip it upside down and all around. Put your left foot in, take your left foot out. Put your right foot in and shake it all about. That still doesn't change the fact that Aventurine has a part in AV.
[[ DEAD ]] - Funny - I deleted my account on the site using the cancel account button. Forum user is separate and still exists with no way of deleting it. Delete it admins. Do it, this ends now.
That's the point exactly. If it's not final then there is no deal. It does not preclude there being one in the near future, because that's what negotiation and intent try to turn into, but it does not mean there is one now. Even if you highly doubt it won't be realized (in fact, me too, unless whatever Aventurine has doesn't meet AVE's standards, which is hard to imagine given they're new to the industry themselves, and if they're negotiating then they obviously liked something) the possibility is still there, so you can't state it as a certainty until it happens. EDIT: I'm talking about a publishing deal, not release. While related, they're still independent (ie. a deal could be made and there could be no release, or the deal doesn't go through but they release through other means).
So what you're saying is that nothing is final until it becomes reality?
I agree. But that is entirely different from some of the posts in this thread...
Comments
The fact is, the TTH DF interview was an INTERVIEW and they did NOT play the game. You cant make up your own "facts".
Did you even read the articles you linked? In the WotLK article, the first thing they say is that they got to sit down and try the game. In the DF interview, they say no such thing.
So, yes, the actual facts speak for themselves.
Wrong, there's nothing about 'MUST' in it. All they have/had to do is talk to the distributor and impress them enough for that company to agree to distribute the game when it's finished.
None of us here are even saying that Adventurine doesn't have a game in some degree of development. What we are saying is that until some form of game either reaches beta or hits the shelves then it IS vaporware. I could sit here all day telling you about all the programs and games I've written. However, until someone other than myself has seen any of them then they too are vaporware.
Lastly, to sum up, you CAN have a publishing deal with no product other than an idea. The stock market has no bearing on the matter.
Creator of ELTank and Nostalgia
I think it was the other way around. They did have the demo at E3.
There you go again.
Virtually everything you say is twisted and incorrect on purpose, I can only surmise. You haven't been correct about anything to do with this game yet. And... Seeing as how we're approaching August, with a game releasing in 2008, it looks like your record will remain intact come the end of year.
The truth. They have NEVER, EVER shown Darkfall to the masses, EVER, ANYWHERE!
Yes, that includes E3 and is WELL documented for anyone to look up on the Internet.
LOTS and LOTS of professional gaming sites attend E3. It is a HUGE event in the industry. Where are all the articles mentioning the Darkfall demo? Please show us where we can read them.
Thanks...
www.tentonhammer.com/index.php
- shows they had a playable demo at E3 2006. OK so maybe the public didn't get to play it.
Don't know if you know but in the last couple of years E3 has seen a huge split of game developers - Blizzard/Activision or whatever they are now calling themselves for instance no longer go there. It's basically Microsoft vs Nintendo vs Sony and heaps of console crap.
There was no demo, they sat there and piched the design concepts. It's quite clear in the article too that it was only a verbal explination of what they hoped to achieve in DF.
Creator of ELTank and Nostalgia
The fact is, the TTH DF interview was an INTERVIEW and they did NOT play the game. You cant make up your own "facts".
Did you even read the articles you linked? In the WotLK article, the first thing they say is that they got to sit down and try the game. In the DF interview, they say no such thing.
So, yes, the actual facts speak for themselves.
I didn't say they played it, I said "saw" the game, which if you look at the first picture you'll see a picture of the guy sitting in front of the laptop. The title of the article is "First impressions", implying they saw the game. If they didn't see the game it would have been called an interview. The text "their physics and combat system are very realistic" is first person and also strongly suggests they saw the game. Lastly, interviews given by the Darkfall devs indicate they took a standalone demo version of the game to the event.
Yes facts do speak for themselves when you use your eyes and common sense. Not to mention there are other first-person accounts of people who have seen and/or played the game.
So every unreleased game in existence is vaporware? mmm OK
Note that other people have seen and played Darkfall so by your own definition, Darkfall is not vaporware.
Wrong, there's nothing about 'MUST' in it. All they have/had to do is talk to the distributor and impress them enough for that company to agree to distribute the game when it's finished.
None of us here are even saying that Adventurine doesn't have a game in some degree of development. What we are saying is that until some form of game either reaches beta or hits the shelves then it IS vaporware. I could sit here all day telling you about all the programs and games I've written. However, until someone other than myself has seen any of them then they too are vaporware.
Lastly, to sum up, you CAN have a publishing deal with no product other than an idea. The stock market has no bearing on the matter.
That actually depends on the distributor. If a developer doesn't have a publisher the better distributors will insist on a development contract where certain conditions of quality need to be meet before they distribute it.
Wow... another year of nothing. It still amazes me the stupidity that people possess in these Darkfall forums. Defending what you believe in is one thing.. but even being proven wrong and getting your nose shoved into it doesn't change your mind. It's like everyone and everything points to the fact that grass is green, yet some of you still believe that it is yellow and that one day, the grass will change and we'll all be proven wrong. Yes, piss is yellow too, that's about the only way it's going to change =P
This game has been in development for almost a decade. Does anyone know what a decade is? I'll tell you! It's 10 freaking years. How many games have been developed after that? I'll venture to guess that very few have pulled that off, if any. And certainly not a MMO of any kind. They promise a 2003 release, you get nothing. 2004 release, you get nothing. 2005 release, again, nothing. And in 2006 you think you see a glimmer of hope, nope.. nothing. 2007? No. It's now 2008 and they have yet again missed the biggest gaming convention of the year. Even the smallest, crappiest game companies with horrible games come to this event. It is the mack daddy of events. Yet, Darkfall can't even manage to show up. I would have felt better if they just said... "Hey, we're here! Sorry, no presentations! But, we're here!"... So.. they either can't afford a booth, or they don't have a game, a logical analysis would dictate.
Yet, whenever Vaporware is mentioned, it's met with scorn and hot tempers. Ignorance doesn't even describe the steadfast denial of these Darkfall fans. It's more like borderline insanity. This is why I'm putting the next bit at the bottom, just to see how many people actually read through before resorting to personal attacks. I personally believe that if this game is made, it should be great. I'm an old UO'er. I love this type of play style. If it hit the shelves tomorrow, I'd be there with box in hand at the register. You better believe it. That said, I'm not stupid. I'm not going to make myself look like an absolute moron because I like what Darkfall has promised.. forget the fact that they've broken their promise about 10 times now. Until this company shows the gamer fans respect. Unless this company interacts with the community as if we are actually people. Until this company stands at E3 or has a press release of ANY significance. Unless I see anything other than broken promises... This game is...
Wait for it..
VAPORWARE!
The fact is, the TTH DF interview was an INTERVIEW and they did NOT play the game. You cant make up your own "facts".
Did you even read the articles you linked? In the WotLK article, the first thing they say is that they got to sit down and try the game. In the DF interview, they say no such thing.
So, yes, the actual facts speak for themselves.
I didn't say they played it, I said "saw" the game, which if you look at the first picture you'll see a picture of the guy sitting in front of the laptop. The title of the article is "First impressions", implying they saw the game. If they didn't see the game it would have been called an interview. The text "their physics and combat system are very realistic" is first person and also strongly suggests they saw the game. Lastly, interviews given by the Darkfall devs indicate they took a standalone demo version of the game to the event.
Yes facts do speak for themselves when you use your eyes and common sense. Not to mention there are other first-person accounts of people who have seen and/or played the game.
A lot of people say plenty of things. Did they show you a video or exclusive never seen before screenshots? Did they perhaps show you some great innovative feature? Did they even take a picture of a computer with the game running on it? Anything? No? Okay.. wonderful. I'm glad we got that out of the way.
The DF guys had a video of the game, IIRC. But again, the facts are this: TTH never said they played the game, a demo, or even that they were shown a video at E3 in 2006. In other circumstances where they DID play a game, they were certain to mention it.
If we want to read between the lines, I would say whatever TTH saw, if anything, it was something they didnt think was worth mentioning. Likely being courteous. But sometimes what you DONT say is just as important as what you do say.
First person accounts of gameplay are also quite...strange. The only one I know of, is Asp. He posted on the DF boards, and on his guild site almost a year ago, and has not been heard from since. Seems odd to me, as being the one guy that has actually played the game (and loved it) you would think he might be more involved. Of course, that doesnt mean he didnt play the game, it just means I think it odd. Bringing news of the 'holy grail' and then disappearing doesnt seem typical to me.
Nope, not vaporware. They have a European publisher/distributer. And old and well respected company that announced to its stock holders that it would be distributing the game, as law states they must. (gotta keep the investors in on whats going on)
So as of now (and I'm sick or repeating it, but something has to counter the years of idiodic trolls going "lol vaporz") they are not vaporware. I'm very surprised anyone believed they were, cause the evidence has always been there, people just chose to ignore it.
Now the only question is, what state is the game in? Will it deliver what it promised? Will it suck? Will it be amazing? We'll see soon, I hope. I'm not getting my hopes up though.
I agree that Darkfall is not total vaporware. There is actually some code there somewhere to be sure.
But.. They DON'T have a distributor. Not really. That was a ploy by Tasos to buy more time.
Are you KIDDING ME?! WHY would someone go to all this trouble. To buy time? You don't sign a publisher deal with a game that they haven't seen. They have a publisher, the publisher agreed to sell the game in Europe, they told their stock holders. How can you possibly fight this so hard?
Darkfall Travelogues!
There are a lot of companies that did not choose to attend E3 this year. It has become pretty much a waste of time. If the developers of DF choose not to show up, it is their dollar. I won't get into the debate over whether DF will ever see the light of day or not. E3 has nothing to do with that debate.
Let's party like it is 1863!
Nope, not vaporware. They have a European publisher/distributer. And old and well respected company that announced to its stock holders that it would be distributing the game, as law states they must. (gotta keep the investors in on whats going on)
So as of now (and I'm sick or repeating it, but something has to counter the years of idiodic trolls going "lol vaporz") they are not vaporware. I'm very surprised anyone believed they were, cause the evidence has always been there, people just chose to ignore it.
Now the only question is, what state is the game in? Will it deliver what it promised? Will it suck? Will it be amazing? We'll see soon, I hope. I'm not getting my hopes up though.
I agree that Darkfall is not total vaporware. There is actually some code there somewhere to be sure.
But.. They DON'T have a distributor. Not really. That was a ploy by Tasos to buy more time.
Are you KIDDING ME?! WHY would someone go to all this trouble. To buy time? You don't sign a publisher deal with a game that they haven't seen. They have a publisher, the publisher agreed to sell the game in Europe, they told their stock holders. How can you possibly fight this so hard?
You can sign a publisher deal with games you/they haven't seen before, it's been done numerous times in the past, it just usually requires ample credentials but that's not the case here. Why do you not understand that they haven't signed a publishing deal? When and where have they told their stock holders that they agreed to sell Darkfall Online in Europe? What promise or commitment did they make to their stock holders that they would be breaking by not publishing Darkfall Online?
Nope, not vaporware. They have a European publisher/distributer. And old and well respected company that announced to its stock holders that it would be distributing the game, as law states they must. (gotta keep the investors in on whats going on)
So as of now (and I'm sick or repeating it, but something has to counter the years of idiodic trolls going "lol vaporz") they are not vaporware. I'm very surprised anyone believed they were, cause the evidence has always been there, people just chose to ignore it.
Now the only question is, what state is the game in? Will it deliver what it promised? Will it suck? Will it be amazing? We'll see soon, I hope. I'm not getting my hopes up though.
I agree that Darkfall is not total vaporware. There is actually some code there somewhere to be sure.
But.. They DON'T have a distributor. Not really. That was a ploy by Tasos to buy more time.
Are you KIDDING ME?! WHY would someone go to all this trouble. To buy time? You don't sign a publisher deal with a game that they haven't seen. They have a publisher, the publisher agreed to sell the game in Europe, they told their stock holders. How can you possibly fight this so hard?
You can sign a publisher deal with games you/they haven't seen before, it's been done numerous times in the past, it just usually requires ample credentials but that's not the case here. Why do you not understand that they haven't signed a publishing deal? When and where have they told their stock holders that they agreed to sell Darkfall Online in Europe? What promise or commitment did they make to their stock holders that they would be breaking by not publishing Darkfall Online?
Well you've made this easier, you've proved that you have no idea what you're talking about. They picked up Audiovisuals as a publisher, an old and well respected European company. It can be read here:
http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=58541
And here's what Tasos had to say about it. (Note, Darkfall people FOUND this article before it was even announced. So none of this bull about "fabricated" articles.
"I see the community has already discovered a couple of news items so I'll briefly comment on them:
As we've mentioned before we had been working on a self-publishing deal, and we've signed with AudioVisual Enterprises to work with us on the European distribution end of Darkfall's publishing. We will make an official announcement on this when it's time for it. Being a public company they are obligated to make a report of their dealings to the stock market and that's the announcement you read about. We're very happy to be working with them especially since we participate in the management of the project."
Darkfall Travelogues!
Nope, not vaporware. They have a European publisher/distributer. And old and well respected company that announced to its stock holders that it would be distributing the game, as law states they must. (gotta keep the investors in on whats going on)
So as of now (and I'm sick or repeating it, but something has to counter the years of idiodic trolls going "lol vaporz") they are not vaporware. I'm very surprised anyone believed they were, cause the evidence has always been there, people just chose to ignore it.
Now the only question is, what state is the game in? Will it deliver what it promised? Will it suck? Will it be amazing? We'll see soon, I hope. I'm not getting my hopes up though.
I agree that Darkfall is not total vaporware. There is actually some code there somewhere to be sure.
But.. They DON'T have a distributor. Not really. That was a ploy by Tasos to buy more time.
Are you KIDDING ME?! WHY would someone go to all this trouble. To buy time? You don't sign a publisher deal with a game that they haven't seen. They have a publisher, the publisher agreed to sell the game in Europe, they told their stock holders. How can you possibly fight this so hard?
You can sign a publisher deal with games you/they haven't seen before, it's been done numerous times in the past, it just usually requires ample credentials but that's not the case here. Why do you not understand that they haven't signed a publishing deal? When and where have they told their stock holders that they agreed to sell Darkfall Online in Europe? What promise or commitment did they make to their stock holders that they would be breaking by not publishing Darkfall Online?
Well you've made this easier, you've proved that you have no idea what you're talking about. They picked up Audiovisuals as a publisher, an old and well respected European company. It can be read here:
http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=58541
And here's what Tasos had to say about it. (Note, Darkfall people FOUND this article before it was even announced. So none of this bull about "fabricated" articles.
"I see the community has already discovered a couple of news items so I'll briefly comment on them:
As we've mentioned before we had been working on a self-publishing deal, and we've signed with AudioVisual Enterprises to work with us on the European distribution end of Darkfall's publishing. We will make an official announcement on this when it's time for it. Being a public company they are obligated to make a report of their dealings to the stock market and that's the announcement you read about. We're very happy to be working with them especially since we participate in the management of the project."
*sighs* I'm not talking about Tasos' spin, I'm talking about the press release found here.
Now I ask you to momentarily forget what Tasos told you about the deal, and read what AVE themselves have to say about their own participation. Then read the post you quoted in that perspective.
Nope, not vaporware. They have a European publisher/distributer. And old and well respected company that announced to its stock holders that it would be distributing the game, as law states they must. (gotta keep the investors in on whats going on)
So as of now (and I'm sick or repeating it, but something has to counter the years of idiodic trolls going "lol vaporz") they are not vaporware. I'm very surprised anyone believed they were, cause the evidence has always been there, people just chose to ignore it.
Now the only question is, what state is the game in? Will it deliver what it promised? Will it suck? Will it be amazing? We'll see soon, I hope. I'm not getting my hopes up though.
I agree that Darkfall is not total vaporware. There is actually some code there somewhere to be sure.
But.. They DON'T have a distributor. Not really. That was a ploy by Tasos to buy more time.
Are you KIDDING ME?! WHY would someone go to all this trouble. To buy time? You don't sign a publisher deal with a game that they haven't seen. They have a publisher, the publisher agreed to sell the game in Europe, they told their stock holders. How can you possibly fight this so hard?
You can sign a publisher deal with games you/they haven't seen before, it's been done numerous times in the past, it just usually requires ample credentials but that's not the case here. Why do you not understand that they haven't signed a publishing deal? When and where have they told their stock holders that they agreed to sell Darkfall Online in Europe? What promise or commitment did they make to their stock holders that they would be breaking by not publishing Darkfall Online?
Well you've made this easier, you've proved that you have no idea what you're talking about. They picked up Audiovisuals as a publisher, an old and well respected European company. It can be read here:
http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=58541
And here's what Tasos had to say about it. (Note, Darkfall people FOUND this article before it was even announced. So none of this bull about "fabricated" articles.
"I see the community has already discovered a couple of news items so I'll briefly comment on them:
As we've mentioned before we had been working on a self-publishing deal, and we've signed with AudioVisual Enterprises to work with us on the European distribution end of Darkfall's publishing. We will make an official announcement on this when it's time for it. Being a public company they are obligated to make a report of their dealings to the stock market and that's the announcement you read about. We're very happy to be working with them especially since we participate in the management of the project."
*sighs* I'm not talking about Tasos' spin, I'm talking about the press release found here.
Now I ask you to momentarily forget what Tasos told you about the deal, and read what AVE themselves have to say about their own participation. Then read the post you quoted in that perspective.
"The company BUSINESS AND SOUND EIKONOS SA announces training Memorandum of Cooperation with the company AVENTURINE SA, with the sole purpose of printing, distribution and operation of online games subscriber (on line gaming) in all countries of Europe. To this end, the SOUND AND BUSINESS EIKONOS AU will create a new section Gaming Division paying royalties to the above beneficiary than 35% of sales. By exploiting the online games subscriber BUSINESS AND SOUND EIKONOS SA (AVE) estimates that avoids the loss of revenue from any piracy in any form. "
Let's break this down. Sadly with an MoC, it can either be an outline of INTENT, or it can be legally binding, depending on what is outlined in the exact business statement. None of us have access to that. So, I suppose that's left to speculation.
Next part, pretty clear " sole purpose of printing, distribution and operation of online games subscriber (on line gaming) in all countries of Europe" A publisher. They'll be advertising and selling the game to all countries in Europe.
Here's the interesting one. "EIKONOS AU will create a new section Gaming Division paying royalties to the above beneficiary than 35% of sales. By exploiting the online games subscriber BUSINESS AND SOUND EIKONOS SA (AVE) estimates that avoids the loss of revenue from any piracy in any form. "
Ok, with this, two things I want to point out. The company is planning to create an entire new division for video games (they've previously only dealt with other kind of media). This is a pretty serious deal, considering and announcing it will have an impact on their stock, so they wouldn't just do this on a whim, and it also means they're fairly confident they'll be able to make money out of the deal.
The second bit, it that it reassures its investors that there's no danger of piracy. They're talking directly to their stock holders here. Again, they wouldn't make that kind of announcement and then not do ANYTHING, because any active investors will watch this company's news feed and buy and sell accordingly. Creating a division for an entire new group of media, then telling the stock holders not to worry about it, they're just not "thinking about it if maybe it ever happens."
That's my two cents anyway. I could be COMPLETELY wrong, but what I know about the business world, that is how I interpret it.
Darkfall Travelogues!
Nope, not vaporware. They have a European publisher/distributer. And old and well respected company that announced to its stock holders that it would be distributing the game, as law states they must. (gotta keep the investors in on whats going on)
So as of now (and I'm sick or repeating it, but something has to counter the years of idiodic trolls going "lol vaporz") they are not vaporware. I'm very surprised anyone believed they were, cause the evidence has always been there, people just chose to ignore it.
Now the only question is, what state is the game in? Will it deliver what it promised? Will it suck? Will it be amazing? We'll see soon, I hope. I'm not getting my hopes up though.
I agree that Darkfall is not total vaporware. There is actually some code there somewhere to be sure.
But.. They DON'T have a distributor. Not really. That was a ploy by Tasos to buy more time.
Are you KIDDING ME?! WHY would someone go to all this trouble. To buy time? You don't sign a publisher deal with a game that they haven't seen. They have a publisher, the publisher agreed to sell the game in Europe, they told their stock holders. How can you possibly fight this so hard?
You can sign a publisher deal with games you/they haven't seen before, it's been done numerous times in the past, it just usually requires ample credentials but that's not the case here. Why do you not understand that they haven't signed a publishing deal? When and where have they told their stock holders that they agreed to sell Darkfall Online in Europe? What promise or commitment did they make to their stock holders that they would be breaking by not publishing Darkfall Online?
Well you've made this easier, you've proved that you have no idea what you're talking about. They picked up Audiovisuals as a publisher, an old and well respected European company. It can be read here:
http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=58541
And here's what Tasos had to say about it. (Note, Darkfall people FOUND this article before it was even announced. So none of this bull about "fabricated" articles.
"I see the community has already discovered a couple of news items so I'll briefly comment on them:
As we've mentioned before we had been working on a self-publishing deal, and we've signed with AudioVisual Enterprises to work with us on the European distribution end of Darkfall's publishing. We will make an official announcement on this when it's time for it. Being a public company they are obligated to make a report of their dealings to the stock market and that's the announcement you read about. We're very happy to be working with them especially since we participate in the management of the project."
*sighs* I'm not talking about Tasos' spin, I'm talking about the press release found here.
Now I ask you to momentarily forget what Tasos told you about the deal, and read what AVE themselves have to say about their own participation. Then read the post you quoted in that perspective.
"The company BUSINESS AND SOUND EIKONOS SA announces training Memorandum of Cooperation with the company AVENTURINE SA, with the sole purpose of printing, distribution and operation of online games subscriber (on line gaming) in all countries of Europe. To this end, the SOUND AND BUSINESS EIKONOS AU will create a new section Gaming Division paying royalties to the above beneficiary than 35% of sales. By exploiting the online games subscriber BUSINESS AND SOUND EIKONOS SA (AVE) estimates that avoids the loss of revenue from any piracy in any form. "
Let's break this down. Sadly with an MoC, it can either be an outline of INTENT, or it can be legally binding, depending on what is outlined in the exact business statement. None of us have access to that. So, I suppose that's left to speculation.
Next part, pretty clear " sole purpose of printing, distribution and operation of online games subscriber (on line gaming) in all countries of Europe" A publisher. They'll be advertising and selling the game to all countries in Europe.
Here's the interesting one. "EIKONOS AU will create a new section Gaming Division paying royalties to the above beneficiary than 35% of sales. By exploiting the online games subscriber BUSINESS AND SOUND EIKONOS SA (AVE) estimates that avoids the loss of revenue from any piracy in any form. "
Ok, with this, two things I want to point out. The company is planning to create an entire new division for video games (they've previously only dealt with other kind of media). This is a pretty serious deal, considering and announcing it will have an impact on their stock, so they wouldn't just do this on a whim, and it also means they're fairly confident they'll be able to make money out of the deal.
The second bit, it that it reassures its investors that there's no danger of piracy. They're talking directly to their stock holders here. Again, they wouldn't make that kind of announcement and then not do ANYTHING, because any active investors will watch this company's news feed and buy and sell accordingly. Creating a division for an entire new group of media, then telling the stock holders not to worry about it, they're just not "thinking about it if maybe it ever happens."
That's my two cents anyway. I could be COMPLETELY wrong, but what I know about the business world, that is how I interpret it.
Ok, I just wanted to quote this message because it's so big and I thought it would be a cool thing to do.
Ok, I'm done.
Alright, now that you've read, do you understand that while they are contemplating the creation of this new division (You forgot to copy and paste the "to that end" that links the two statements together), they have not announced any deals regarding the publishing of Darkfall Online? Nowhere does it say that they will be publishing Darkfall Online, or any games whatsoever.
"Again, they wouldn't make that kind of announcement and then not do ANYTHING, because any active investors will watch this company's news feed and buy and sell accordingly."
Not saying they would or will, but they can. Press releases for considerations and negotiations are done all over the place, and a lot never go through, there's plenty of precedent. By telling their shareholders they're exploring certain possibilities they're not committing to actually partaking in them.
If their intent was to sign a legally enforceable agreement to publish one/any of Aventurine's games, and they are fairly confident they'll be able to make money out of the deal, why a MoU and not a contract and a clear announcement of it.
It's good you've gone from "They have a game because they have a publishing deal" to "None of us have access to that. So, I suppose that's left to speculation.", it shows progress, but I'll tell you one thing, if it's open to interpretation (especially to shareholders) then it's nothing solid. If they had a deal they would have announced it, no speculation necessary.
EDIT: The purpose of the MoU is not the slightest bit unclear, that's never been a source of debate.
It IS vaporware, right up until the time they either release or at least have a beta.
A distribution deal means absolutely nothing. All it does mean is that they have talked to a distributor and signed an agreement so that WHEN/IF something ever gets onto a CD then the distributor will be shipping it out.
I could go out tomorrow and sign an agreement with a distributor on a product that does't exist. It only has to be an idea for you to make plans and agreements.
Are you kidding me? Well with that brilliant logic, no game on earth exists until it hits store shelves! How did it get there then? Hmm, a paradox. I mean, are you even listening to yourself?
That company would not agree to spend THEIR MONEY publishing something that DOESN'T exist. It exists.
A THOUSAND TIMES it exists! I'm not defending the QUALITY of the game. I have no idea what its going to be like or if they'll make their launch date. But IT EXISTS!!!
Seriously, this is no random company. This company has been around a loooong time, distributing all kinds of multimedia. They're not going to tell their stock holders they're selling a game that doesn't even exist. They're not signing a deal with thin air.
Sure it exists as a 3d screensaver you can download later when they announce they never had a game to begin with or the staff to even make such a thing. Problem with their publisher is Aventurine SA owns 35% of it and supports a new gaming division in the company and thus it isn't just the publisher's money so it means nothing and thus no one is giving Aventurine credit because of this move. Just blowing smoke in everyone's direction.
Alright, now that you've read, do you understand that while they are contemplating the creation of this new division (You forgot to copy and paste the "to that end" that links the two statements together), they have not announced any deals regarding the publishing of Darkfall Online? Nowhere does it say that they will be publishing Darkfall Online, or any games whatsoever.
"Again, they wouldn't make that kind of announcement and then not do ANYTHING, because any active investors will watch this company's news feed and buy and sell accordingly."
Not saying they would or will, but they can. Press releases for considerations and negotiations are done all over the place, and a lot never go through, there's plenty of precedent. By telling their shareholders they're exploring certain possibilities they're not committing to actually partaking in them.
If their intent was to sign a legally enforceable agreement to publish one/any of Aventurine's games, and they are fairly confident they'll be able to make money out of the deal, why a MoU and not a contract and a clear announcement of it.
It's good you've gone from "They have a game because they have a publishing deal" to "None of us have access to that. So, I suppose that's left to speculation.", it shows progress, but I'll tell you one thing, if it's open to interpretation (especially to shareholders) then it's nothing solid. If they had a deal they would have announced it, no speculation necessary.
EDIT: The purpose of the MoU is not the slightest bit unclear, that's never been a source of debate.
Unfortunately I agree. Tasos did say that he would announce something finite when he can, hopefully it will be soon. At least YOU'VE progressed enough past the point of thinking its all just vaporware. Though the text does say any MMORPG by Aventurine. Unless they're working on something else, I'm pretty sure its clear what the game in question is :P
As for Hashbrick, this discussion was going in the direction of intelligent words, why'd you have to derail it? We don't know anything yet other than the game exists, it will probably release (there would be no monetary benefit to abandoning it here), hopefully will release in 2008 with its features intact. If not, then the MMO world has lost one of its only chances at a quality game thats not a big company WoW clone.
Darkfall Travelogues!
You realize I quoted a different post of yours within this thread right? I just proved how much that publishing partnership doesn't mean squat and the best you can come up with is we don't know anything other than the game exists. We don't even know if the game exist so let's not start saying things that are untrue.
Aventurine owns 35% of the publisher and formed the gaming division in those eyes Aventurine can say what ever they please since they run the division. So clearly they could be publishing thin-air!
I've never thought it was vaporware in the strictest sense of the word. If the opinion you've given elsewhere is honest, then we pretty much have the same opinion. I think there's a game, but I don't know what state is in. Some of Tasos' claims have been too outlandish (the framerate in 100v100 battle with those graphics, for one, or the community description at the greek conference) for me to take in at face value, so I doubt. But I'd be pleasantly surprised if they all turn out to be true. The problem is I'm a stickler, to OCD levels, for objectivity. I don't like ambiguity, and whenever someone is taking speculation for fact (which granted you're not, otherwise this wouldn't have been nearly as congenial) or taking whatever as conclusive evidence of anything, I feel compelled to remind them it isn't.
I too think AVE will end up being the European distributor, I just wanted to make sure it's clear that at the moment nothing is certain, because otherwise others (supporters or detractors, look at HashBrick, what he said gives the impression he didn't even read the press release) will take it as gospel written on stone and use it as definite proof to back up their arguments.
In the end the best that can happen is that Darkfall releases this year while being feature complete, having great content and few bugs and hitches, and being a blast to play, so let's hope for that, but at the same time let's expect and prepare for the worst.
@HashBrick
If you want to argue about the deal between Aventurine and Audio Visual Enterprises, please refrain from straying too much from common sense.
An announcement to the stock market is an official announcement; AVE will be running the new Gaming Division, not Aventurine, and they will be giving 35% of sales income to them (compared to the standard 15% of sales that other distributors do normally). That, to any open-minded person, means a publishing deal is at hand; it's not final due to all the bureaucratic crap one has to go through to form that division and get all pertaining permits.
If, on the other hand, you think that the game not being at stores yet, signifies there being no publishing deal, then I'm sorry but the discussion is simply an irrational contradiction without any argumentation...
@Silvarch: yes, it is not final and anything could happen between now and scheduled release (even cancelling of the project)...but I highly doubt it, barring any acts of God of course...
That's the point exactly. If it's not final then there is no deal. It does not preclude there being one in the near future, because that's what negotiation and intent try to turn into, but it does not mean there is one now. Even if you highly doubt it won't be realized (in fact, me too, unless whatever Aventurine has doesn't meet AVE's standards, which is hard to imagine given they're new to the industry themselves, and if they're negotiating then they obviously liked something) the possibility is still there, so you can't state it as a certainty until it happens.
EDIT: I'm talking about a publishing deal, not release. While related, they're still independent (ie. a deal could be made and there could be no release, or the deal doesn't go through but they release through other means).
You can take it however you want, you can flip it upside down and all around. Put your left foot in, take your left foot out. Put your right foot in and shake it all about. That still doesn't change the fact that Aventurine has a part in AV.
So what you're saying is that nothing is final until it becomes reality?
I agree. But that is entirely different from some of the posts in this thread...