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Originally posted by Fion Originally posted by Enigma Originally posted by link35 i honestly dont see how you find it unimmersive, and your opinion doesnt make it fail as an mmo so please dont act as if it were a fact
its his opinion. People really need to start respecting other's opinion around here (goes for boththe fanbois and the haters)
It is his opinion, but he states it as pure fact.
I agree with one poster, I've found myself more immersed in this MMOG then I ever was in WoW or the myriad other MMOGs I've played.
And if you call any MMOG that uses instancing in it's zones, a non-MMOG, you have to cut out a whole bunch of games. Including City of Heroes/Villains. As it uses the exact same tech.
Could you please explain to me how you found this more immersive than any other MMO you've ever played? And also, could you list the MMOs you've played? Thanks.
Sure thing Retrad.
I find it so immersive largely because of the high quality hand crafted zones in the game. They look 'lived in' and used and built upon over the centuries. Conall's Valley is stunning to explore and climb up the mountain sides and look into the valley. Coming into Tarantia is awe inspiring. Climbing the steep slopes in Wildlands to a point where you can see forever around you*. Building a city with my guild has been immersive and fun. Hunting the wildlife for their skins and meat. Each place in this game is so lovingly hand crafted and it's obvious. There hasn't been an MMOG where each zone was so obviously hand designed since EQ in my opinion.
I mean parts of WoW are clearly hand crafted but largely they are not. Every zone seems to use the same textures over and over (with different color fogs and such to try and differentiate them.) Each building is identical to the last. In AoC the environments are stunning and each ctiy or village is unique or near so. That alone adds to the immersion.
Adding to the above is the sound design and the music. It's simply the best I've seen in an MMOG, and is largely better then many AAA non-MMOG titles. The inspiring instrumental as you come into Tarantia. The haunted melodic chorus of Conall's Valley, and more. It's not just the music but the sound design itself. The visceral sounds of combat. Weapons clanging, enemies grunting or yelling, gurgling to their deaths. Individual sfx for the type of armor your weapon hits. The simply fact that swinging a sword and swinging a hammer are completely different auditory experiences. It's a far cry from WoW and similar games that use wild auditory cues and flashy sounds to simulate their combat. AoC is far far different and better. Get yourself a 5.1 or 7.1 surround system, stand in the middle of a Vanir camp in Conall's Valley when there are others around fighting and close your eyes. You can literally tell what kind of weapon the player is fighting with.
Those are some of the reasons why AoC is so deeply immersive to me. I keep hearing that it's not immersive because of the instancing. But IMHO that is more a bullet point for those who oppose the game to argue against it more then an actual impact on the gameplay or immersion.. I'm a lead of one of the largest guilds on the WIccana server and not a single one of our 60+ members (and growing daily,) ever complains about it. If anything they use it to their advantage. Theres still plenty folks in each zone that it's not a ghost town, but at the same time you don't find every little quest camped, lines to take out boss mobs, etc. And it's not like AoC is the only MMOG to use this tech, let alone the first. A growing number of MMOGs do. From CoH to TR. Arguing whether it is a benefit or a sour note on the industry is semantics as far as I'm concerned.
I'm not saying the game is without fault. It needs some serious work in several areas. But on the topic of immersion, I think it is among the best.
Edit: Oh, almost forgot hehe. MMOG's I've played. See that list to the left? 90% of those I've at least beta tested. MMOG's I've spent a significant amount of time in (1 year +) would include;
Star Wars Galaxies
City of Heroes/Villains (CoX)
Dark Age of Camelot
World of Warcraft
I've spent 6 months or less in a myriad of others, not counting those I've beta tested, at least 80% of the list of released games on this website and more, including many non MMOGs.
So it's not an issue of experience. But at the same time I'm a lot more laid back about my MMOG gaming then apparently a lot of other people lol. Things like instancing and lack of things to do at an end game, or lots of small bugs. If a game is fun, immersive, and I've got a good bunch of folks to play with (the best if they are a part of gold ol 3305 Local,) then I'm content.
* Little note here. It is entirely possible to climb up mountain sides and steep terrain. You just need to spend some time learning what you can and cannot climb, what you can get up by jumping, etc. I've got screenshots taken from areas many players thought impossible to climb. But if you take a little patience, and the luck and determination to learn how to climb in the game, you can climb a lot of places. The folks that think you cant are just those that got to a point where they couldn't walk up anymore do to the steepness and said 'op, thats it, no climbing in the game.'
whoever decided to stick with the "everything is an instance" model in AoC should be fired.
too much marketing, too little gameplay.
what rubbish, the instances are fine - esp the fact some are huge -
once you are thru the noob zone the game has amazing freedom despite being zone/instanced -
if you dont like it /shrug but the game is great fun imho and the instances dont bothier anyone i play with..
Exactly. It seems the only people that really have a problem with the instancing are folks like the guy above your post. IE people with an agenda. Trolls, haters, and fanboi's of other games.
Originally posted by Fion Exactly. It seems the only people that really have a problem with the instancing are folks like the guy above your post. IE people with an agenda. Trolls, haters, and fanboi's of other games.
This is so not true. There are many people saying they don t like it , but are waiting a few months to see what happens. Does this make them a troll, hater, or fanbois of another game. I can say from my personal experience, that i know of at least 30 people who could care less if the game suceeds or not wont be playing it due to this and other reasons. These 30 people are members of a guild i m in , in other games. It s simply this, not everyone is going to like it, and being that you re a close second only behing Avery as AOC s fanbois, of course you ll say this.
I agree with the OP. I'm not sure what this game is but it isn't an MMO. Scratch that, sorry thinking on the fly here. I know exactly what this game is. It's Guild wars that you pay for. That's EXACTLY what this is. It's pretty, it's not an MMO, you are not playing with everyone on the same server, seperated from the rest of the game world up to 20, and it's got loading screens. Hmmm smacks of awful to me.
Originally posted by WiccanCircle Originally posted by sandgrown conan does not play well on a mid range system .fortunatly for me i have higher spec gaming rig which it does play on its been fun but i dont think its for me ...
You don't actually know data about how this game runs on systems - you just have an agenda and if you notice, the only ones left here bitching are you losers that have agendas. The rest of the million of us are playing a fun enjoyable game that is better than any other MMO out in the market today, period.
Game runs great on about a million systems so far - Go away,
People are enjoying this game better than the old, outdated games - Go away.
Not one word he said was out of line. He even said his time with the game was fun.
Both of the statements you made were direct LIES. Well, one was a lie..the other was a guess that you stated as a fact. As though someone made you the voice for thousands of other players today. They didn't, and you're quite wrong.
You DO need a high end system to play this game and play it well. NO it does NOT run well on even above mid-range systems...and even then the code is not optimized to run well across all possible mid to top-range system specs. So, even among those whom possess the hardware capable PC, you will still find players who cannot enjoy the game due to performance issues. I happen to know a few myself...as a matter of fact, not one single "Super Computer" owning friend of mine has been able to play this game optimally YET. Granted, that pool is only of 3 people (4 soon, he's upset that he can't even get Hellgate to run...though I'm not sure why he wants it to), but I'd like to think at least ONE of them could manage to get it to run as smoothly as you people suggest.
There is no agenda here. If anything, you should have just shut your trap because the poster YOU quoted at least said he had great fun with the game. The rest of us (myself included) would not be so kind, and will gladly take this opportunity to gun your stance right out of the water.
Originally posted by Retrad Originally posted by Fion Originally posted by Enigma Originally posted by link35 i honestly dont see how you find it unimmersive, and your opinion doesnt make it fail as an mmo so please dont act as if it were a fact
I can answer this one for my 3305 buddy (Wiccana Server / DDO vet what's up!).
AoC is immersive to me. To clarify the discussion, lets look up the definition of immersive. I think a lot of the haters throw that term around without knowing what it means. Instancing should not kill immersion. If it did, so would the UI, and respawning, and damage numbers floating overhead, etc.
The most applicable definition I found was: Immersion = state of being deeply engaged or involved; absorption.
When playing AoC, I find myselve deeply engaged and involved. I read the story lines for the first time in any MMO. I find myself stopping to look closely at characters and what they are wearing or look like. I look at the ceiling and environment when I go dungeoncrawling, as if I were in a real life palace or dark temple.
What makes AoC immersive to me is how it makes sense. For WoW and other games, you get random junk off of random things. Items in that game don't match the world or any lore. In AoC, when I go to Old Tarantia, I FEEL like I'm in ancient Rome. The environment matches the clothes the NPCs wear, which also matches the items I get for quest rewards, and here's the kicker - the quests match the environment! That's something no game has yet to offer me.
But that's fine, I feel like I'm responding to flamers that pick up random words and try to sling mud at a perfectly good game because others are enjoying themselves but the trolls are just too sadistic to know how to have fun with a videogame.
basically i want a next-generation MMO, not another WOW-clone with different graphics.
is that so much to ask?
Originally posted by Gishgeron Originally posted by WiccanCircle Originally posted by sandgrown conan does not play well on a mid range system .fortunatly for me i have higher spec gaming rig which it does play on its been fun but i dont think its for me ...
What is a midrange system? I run AoC on medium settings with a $450 dollar PC I just built.
Originally posted by dirtknap69 Originally posted by Fion Exactly. It seems the only people that really have a problem with the instancing are folks like the guy above your post. IE people with an agenda. Trolls, haters, and fanboi's of other games.
Actually...yeah. Technology is a massive limiting factor in most of the great ideals that we all have. So is money....and time. I think Funcom did the best they could given the hard realities they faced with their chosen direction and current internet technology being the way it is. They COULD have pushed the envelope a little more than what they did, but I'm not here to fault them for that.
I want a Next-Gen MMO too...and I agree with everything you said, basically. I do realize that such an MMO is going to have to let go of its "pretty" to accommodate the hard processing requirements of such a beast. More than that, I realize that anything truly innovative or revolutionary is going to be received very slowly at first...because we've all be tainted by how EQ 'taught' us that MMOs should be. Its a tough sell to make when you have to convince investors to wait 3 years for any real returns on their money....when a proven system already exists to grant them said returns in the first quarter.
Originally posted by oronisi What is a midrange system? I run AoC on medium settings with a $450 dollar PC I just built.
Thats not entirely unbelievable. Mostly because:
A: You never said it ran well
B: The Tech savvy among us can build a PC from scratch using parts they order online from wholesale dealers
C: You could have gotten massively lucky and snagged a sexy dual-core motherboard tower at a pawn shop after some crack-head snaked it for some quick cash
I also believe in the easter bunny
You could give us your specs....because then we could actually look up the individual pricing on everything you have and discuss that angle more accurately. I do not require this, however, because I would much rather simply answer your question.
A mid-range system would be a machine running somewhere between "This can play WoW...and thats about it" and "Holy hell, I can run Crysis on full!" Ideally, its either a single-core running 3.8 ghz + or a dual core 2.4ghz. Its got a minimum of a 256, but I'd accept heavily overclocked ones as well. Its probably only running a single gig or two (if on XP...if Vista, I think we all know you have to add a gig just to deal with the stupid OS) of RAM.
All accounts of said systems has been VERY mixed on this game. Some could do it well enough (with an expected amount of lag or hitching) and others couldn't even get to a login screen. In both cases, neither side had actually participated in actual PvP events which involved the sieges. Knowing what I do, I can assure you that such things are going to slam those systems right to the ground. Unless they have some rather creative rendering systems in place for those battles, that is. I wouldn't put it past them, but I also wouldn't expect it.
Originally posted by Leucent Originally posted by Fion Exactly. It seems the only people that really have a problem with the instancing are folks like the guy above your post. IE people with an agenda. Trolls, haters, and fanboi's of other games.
So 'at least' 30 members of your guild all hate the instancing so bad they plan on leaving if it doesn't change before the end of their free month or soon after?
Why does that strike me as odd? Oh yea, because not a single person I've talked to in game really cares about it, and I'm part of the one of the largest guilds on Wiccana and not a one of them gives a rats ass about the instancing.
Granted, I can see it being more an issue on PvP servers, and I should have said 'most', not 'all.' But my post was pertaining more to forums like these then in game players. It seams on the forums the whole issue is mostly used as a bullet point as to why the game 'sucks' or '= fail' or what have you.
Originally posted by Gishgeron Originally posted by oronisi What is a midrange system? I run AoC on medium settings with a $450 dollar PC I just built.
Mixed results on different computers? No kidding. Do you think that most of this is problems on the server end? I don't and I know at least as much as you do about this situation. You are guessing from ingorance... pathetic.
If you have nothing to add... go away. Your ignorance isn't helping the conversation, it is just showing your bias.
"The reality of the poor in America isn't the difference between The Haves and The Have Nots, it is the difference between The Haves and The Have Lots."
Originally posted by Fion Originally posted by Leucent Originally posted by Fion Exactly. It seems the only people that really have a problem with the instancing are folks like the guy above your post. IE people with an agenda. Trolls, haters, and fanboi's of other games.
No what i said was they don t like instancing period. Why is that odd. We tried the game didn t like it as a guild so we decided to leave. Did you hear us in game no because we didn t talk to you or any other person in game about it. By the sound of it you must have talked to everybody in game? I guess because you seem to know everything, everyone is thinking. Not to mention what they all like and dislike. Get it through your head this game isn t for everyone and never will be, if some have problems with it for whatever reason, calm down , chill out and forget it. You can t change peoples minds with your oh so favorable fanbois propaganda.
Lol ....... occasionally I run across a post that is truly out there. As a result I usually just get a smile on my face.
After reading this one ........ I just can't seem to get rid of the smile.
Thank you .........
Originally posted by Leucent Originally posted by Fion Originally posted by Leucent Originally posted by Fion Exactly. It seems the only people that really have a problem with the instancing are folks like the guy above your post. IE people with an agenda. Trolls, haters, and fanboi's of other games.
AoC's Zones are like EQ2's.
Cant wait till your try warhammers "instanced" scenerios, especially as they will be a main staple / integral part of the game, and originally designed like this with 'more open' world added it as an afterthought from feedback.
Point is instancing is here to stay, its useful for how the game is set up and design. Sure there are 5 loading screens in tortage area, get out of that and you have the regular zone instances on the main land, just like EQ2.
Many thousands of people are enjoying the game on my sever too, the in depth life in each area, more so than anyother game i've played makes me feel more immersed than ever. A loading screen for a couple seconds here or there does nothing for me.
Where were all these complaints when EQ2 came out ?
Originally posted by AmazingAvery Originally posted by Leucent Originally posted by Fion Originally posted by Leucent Originally posted by Fion Exactly. It seems the only people that really have a problem with the instancing are folks like the guy above your post. IE people with an agenda. Trolls, haters, and fanboi's of other games.
Where did i once mention WAR , why did you have to. One i m trying WAR now so what you re saying is so off base trust me i know. Second i hated EQ2 so what good is that to me. Third ya they listened to feedback whats wrong with that lol. I never said people aren t enjoying it , i said we didn t as a group. Why is that so hard for you guys to understand. Get over it.
Also Avery, they have alot of instanced BGs in WAR yes, but they have a ton of Open World RVR not FFA ganfests as options, which is far better then the unfinished options you have in AOC now. Will it change for the better probably, but for now my time in WAR beta is better then i had in AOC. You brought it up so i m countering.
Originally posted by Leucent Also Avery, they have alot of instanced BGs in WAR yes, but they have a ton of Open World RVR not FFA ganfests as options, which is far better then the unfinished options you have in AOC now. Will it change for the better probably, but for now my time in WAR beta is better then i had in AOC. You brought it up so i m countering.
I brought up AoC, EQ2, LotrO, and War combined with instances, its all relevant. The point is you say you guys dont like instances, you cant play a game these days without one. Thats all im saying. You only actually played maybe 10 hrs a friends house of AoC if I remember right and didnt like it? Thats cool I can appreciate your tastes and respect them. As I am in game your not (last time was what a week ago for you?, and based on limited game time) I am just relaying amongst all the bugs and such people are still having fun in AoC and are continuing to do so. I havent heard one bad instance remark yet. Minor bugs seem more to be the issue in game.
Its not about war, I just picked 4 top / popular games.
Originally posted by Enigma Originally posted by link35 i honestly dont see how you find it unimmersive, and your opinion doesnt make it fail as an mmo so please dont act as if it were a fact
I don't know man. If I don't like a game I just don't play it. I don't know where these people come from that they feel it is their duty to tell the world how much they think AoC sucks or that it's not an MMO.
Why are the anti any game? If you don't like it, don't play it.
There are hundreds of games I don't like I don't have to go to their forums and bash them.
Originally posted by AmazingAvery Originally posted by Leucent Also Avery, they have alot of instanced BGs in WAR yes, but they have a ton of Open World RVR not FFA ganfests as options, which is far better then the unfinished options you have in AOC now. Will it change for the better probably, but for now my time in WAR beta is better then i had in AOC. You brought it up so i m countering.
Fair enough but i am in beta and understand with feedback they added alot of Open World rvr. I will agree without what they added i wouldn t like the game as much, but the fact they did and the emphasis is less on instanced areas makes it a plus. Yes i played the game at a friends not much at all. Hes in the guild i mentioned along with 30 or so in that guild that played AOC. They all didn t like it as a whole. I didn t buy the game but figured next best thing is see it for free with my own eyes. Now the one thing you have to understand is this. WAR does not use anything like EQ2 and AOC. Instances yes but not in the gameworld as a whole. Theres the big difference. I can run for a very long time without an instance at all. In AOC i go into a shop and it s instanced, wtf is that. As i said before if you like it great, we didn t thats it end of story.
Originally posted by todeswulfMMO's aren't Immersive that is the problem..they are static, you live in a groundhog day scenario and nothing you do ultimately matters. it can't, because 10 million people can't be special.
Tss they can be and some were dynamic, not static. Many people are sitting around waiting for a developer to make us a nice fresh new one.
An example of a dynamic mmo is EvE online, which has the majority of its systems being run by players (everything in 0.0 space) and most of what happens is between players, wars between players, or pirates or merchants or crafters or what have you.
Originally posted by todeswulf AoC has taken a step towards the ultimate evolution of MMO's to Online Role Playing games. ORPG, can blur the lines a bit more by using instancing in the way Funcom has...you can have your social interaction, but for times when the world needs to stop and make Johnny Subscriber feel like a hero
. well you need to have instancing for that.
Guild wars has done that instancing thing long before AoC did. Diablo (2 i think)'s online play even did it, and that game qualifies as an mmorpg by today's standards. The only thing innovating about AoC is the combat mechanism, and that only a little bit so (after all oblivion did it just fine, aoc's thing is about making it in an mmorpg).
The way to make you feel like a hero is.. offer you a world where any person can surpass his player peers to go on to great things, either a feared highly respected warrior type or a wise leader or whatever. Which is quite possible in EvE for instance.
(no, i am not a fan of eve, i dont like its click to move and leveling systems, only its extremely open scope)
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Originally posted by Gishgeron Originally posted by dirtknap69 Originally posted by Fion Exactly. It seems the only people that really have a problem with the instancing are folks like the guy above your post. IE people with an agenda. Trolls, haters, and fanboi's of other games.
Not really -- all the stuff i mentioned is implemented server-side, where processing power is pretty much limitless for most intents and purposes, given good software design and liberal use of clustering.
There is NO reason why we can't have a game with the scope of eg: Darkfall with the graphics of AoC, because world and gameplay systems are handled by the server, graphics on the client.
No question that more game features == more development time for sure, that's why games that *are* really trying to go for 'next-gen MMO' through all these 'zomg gameplay' features have very long development cycles. Darkfall is again a case in point here.
The point of this post is that the limiting factor of 'next-gen MMOs' is *NOT* technology, it's game companies themselves and financial investors being unwilling to invest in a 7-year MMO development cycle when they can keep churning out AoC's every few years, using recycled code and different graphics, and the same boring, restrictive world & gameplay.