Crafters: Which type of economy do you prefer?

ImpacatusImpacatus San Diego, CAMember Posts: 436

There's a disagreement in this thread: mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/182960



Concerning which type of economy is generally preferred by crafters.  I know not everyone is the same, but I'm hoping to get a feeling of the general sentiment here.  So here are your choices:

1.  A free market economy where you set your own prices and sell things directly to other players.  You might have tools such as player vendors or an auction house to assist you in finding customers, but you only sell things when someone wants to buy them.  You attempt to find a niche in the market and sell items and services needed by other players.  Supply and demand determines the value of things, and it's possible to make money speculating on prices.  The game would be designed with interdependence in mind to encourage trade.  On the downside, it's possible to be scammed or lose money on a bad investment.  There are ups and downs in the economy and price fluctuations which can either work to your benefit or detriment.

2.  A planned economy where the devs set the prices before the game launches based on predictions about the time and effort it will take to make various items.  You sell you items to NPC merchants at the given price regardless of supply and demand.  Other players can then buy those items, again at a set price.  The game would be designed to let everyone make money doing what they enjoy without risking anything or having to interact with anyone.  Your income is constant.  There is no way to fail or directly lose money, but no way to win big either. 

Apologies if I didn't do justice to one or the other in my descriptions of them, but hopefully that gives you the general idea. 

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Comments

  • ThaliostThaliost PortugalMember UncommonPosts: 104

    free market all the way babeh :)

    I want 95% of all items in-game to be manufactured by players and players alone. And no simplistic AH system.

    It generates a lot of in-game depth and other ways to profit, besides the more standard ones.

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  • MajinashMajinash st louis, MOMember Posts: 1,320

    I really don't understand how anyone could like a pre-made in-game market.  Of course thats just how I feel, and doesn't make it the "truth" in any way.

    I played EVE and loved the market, completley player driven in every way.  with no teleporting it actually opened a way for players to buy-low sell-high... not just when they find some newbie selling something way too low.  Back in my day with some help from my corp in the form of BPCs i was able to run the cruisemissle/torpedo market in caldari space for almost a month.  trying to keep up with demand and keep costs low... it was the most fun i've had crafting in any game.

    I love crafting in every game, and even though I liked EVE's most I still enjoy completely diffrent systems.  But thats just my personal view, I'm not trying to bash more ridged in game markets.

    Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.

  • JupstoJupsto englandMember UncommonPosts: 2,075

    anything other than a free market is not a real ecconomy.

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  • sktslimesktslime imnottellingyoucity, CAMember Posts: 28

    swg's economy before it got destroyed.

  • MuffinManXIVMuffinManXIV Indian Head Park, ILMember Posts: 127

    Hmm, do I like the economy that depends on player interaction, or the one that is completely void of player interaction.  Wait, what genre is this again?  It's a damn MMORPG FFS.  Player interaction is crucial.

  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Chicago, ILMember UncommonPosts: 2,379

    Both.

    By that, I mean that there should be some sort of way to sell goods on the open market, but also some way you can sell goods to an NPC wholesaler at a baseline minimum price.

    It's what EVE does, and what Everquest II used to do.  That way, crafters of all different skill levels can craft for cash.

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  • I favor a system similiar to swg pre-cu with the additional possibility for top elite mobs to drop better then crafted loot (or equivalent to top crafter loot), albeit at a very low drop rate.  Also, no bind on pickup/notrade/whatever you want to call it.  There is no economy with bind on pickup.  If I'm a mage and I find the super duper sword of mass pwnage, I should be able to trade that very rare item for the super duper staff of mass damage.  You get my drift...

  • CavadusCavadus Saint Paul, MNMember UncommonPosts: 707

    Originally posted by Beatnik59


    ...but also some way you can sell goods to an NPC wholesaler at a baseline minimum price.

    Gotta disagree with this.  Vehemently.  Junk Loot vendors do nothing but inflate the economy.  They're a huge faucet of cash that only works one way.  They suck.

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  • katriellkatriell UTC-8Member UncommonPosts: 989

    #1. No looted ready-to-use items whatsoever, only crafting materials or, at most, pieces of equipment that must be assembled by crafters.

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  • Anti-FanboiAnti-Fanboi None, DCMember Posts: 188

    EVE Online's economy

  • KyernaKyerna MechelenMember Posts: 119


    Picked #1 but would like to add that a free market economy linked to a simplified crafting system will not likely offer as much in the way of speculating or the ability on offering niche products as a crafting system based on customizable endproducts.

    A system where every tier 1 sword is a carbon copy of the other means a lot more crafters will have to compete on the same level and have the same customer target; leaving the economy open to serious inflation. A system with customizable endproducts, where my tier 1 sword can be slightly faster than your slightly harder hitting, albeit slower tier 1 sword, opens up more possibilities for each of us to have a niche on the market and thus avoiding harsh inflation.

  • dikkydikky lakak, ABMember CommonPosts: 261

    i like #1. I like to try and become the richest player on the server the fastest

  • SomeOldBlokeSomeOldBloke Lancaster, UKMember UncommonPosts: 2,167

    Free Market...  I have to agree with some of the previous posters, EVE's economy is the way to go... back in the day when I played, I made a lot of money selling ships, mainly cruisers as T2 hadn't come out when I played, I also sold a couple of the smaller Minmatar BS's (forget the name) for a combination of Ore and isk... as I had good refining skills it was all profit...  I love to find another game that is similar...

  • ThaliostThaliost PortugalMember UncommonPosts: 104

    and like eve-online, the newbish items should also be sold by npcs. That way, inflationist monkeys can't take control of the newb items market.

    It is important when you start a game, to have some stability by buying items at normal prices; instead of leaving it to free market and having the possibility of sky rocketing prices.

     

    Also NPC wholesalers buying items is ok by me, as long as they are bought at a very low price. That way you can always sell your junk (which might not happen in a total free market, if there were no buy orders).

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  • ObraikObraik ChristchurchMember Posts: 7,261

    Definetly number 1.  I quite enjoy running my own Armoursmith/Weaponsmith business in SWG where I'm free to choose who I sell to and for how much.  It also makes each server unique in a way.

    image

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  • CleffyIICleffyII The Moon, CAMember Posts: 3,440

    Mabinogi and EVE have the best markets for crafting I have ever played.  Mabinogi because the best items in the game are crafted, and I think EVE has already been explained.

    image

  • ImpacatusImpacatus San Diego, CAMember Posts: 436

    Thank you all for your replies.  This went about the way I expected it to, and I'm glad to see so many players prefer this type of game.

    Deviliscious has accused my poll of being biased, though.  If any of you have the time, would you mind going to the thread linked in the original post,reading some of her arguments and giving your input?  I personally think it's pretty clear you guys knew what you talking about, but it never hurts to be sure.

    I'd also like to see some of the crafters who voted against a free market give their perspective, just so we get an opposing viewpoint.

    If you're building an mmorpg, or if you'd like to share ideas or talk about this industry, visit Multiplayer Worlds.

  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Chicago, ILMember UncommonPosts: 2,379

    I guess I'll play Devil's Advocate, just for debate purposes.

    The problems that tend to crop up in player markets:

    1)  Only a tiny proportion of crafters who make goods can actually make a profit when they sell the goods.  Each server tends to have maybe about ten or fewer crafters who can put out the best quality goods due to bonuses/grandfathered resources, etc.  This leaves maybe a thousand or so crafters per server who may make decent goods, but goods that simply cannot compete on the markets with the uber goods churned out in massive quantities by the crafting elite.

    2)  There can never be a level playing field in terms of competition so that market forces can work.  The best crafters are often guild-sponsored, meaning that they get help and subsidies that aren't readily available to many others.  For example, they don't have to buy their raw materials at market prices, and get access to lootables and rares gratis.  So in this sense, there isn't and cannot be any sort of "free market" in MMOs, because the guilds insulate their members from true market forces.

    3)  Crafting is a viable profession at the endgame only.  Because the crafter with the maxed-out level crafter can do everything the lower crafter can do, and usually with better stats, in a shorter amount of time, and at less cost.  As a result, crafting is a profession that the player pays to do, rather than is paid to do...that is, until he or she reaches max level, at which point there exists problem #1 above.

    4)  The game is already a heavily regulated economy, and competitive markets aren't going to change that.  The reason is that there's no way to make a process better/faster/stronger than what the devs code.  There's no ingenuity in the manufacturing process, or ways to cut costs, since a lot of these factors are hardcoded constants in the crafting minigame.  In short, all the tricks real businesses do to make their businesses more profitable aren't simulated or available to player businesspeople in the game world.  That is...unless you resort to cheats, hacks, and macros (which are often used in games with player markets to give an extra advantage).

    __________________________
    "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
    --Arcken

    "...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
    --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

    "It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
    --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  • dillettidilletti LjubljanaMember Posts: 73

    I love player market games.

    Every item should be crafted by players. From harvested resources and from parts dropped from mobs.

    Resources should be different. I hate it when each iron/mithril/steel/whatever node is the same. They should be of different qualities. Remember SWG? (this is however very heavy on databases but if Soe did it years ago ...)

    Items should decay and only crafters and repairers should be able to repair them (no NPCs!). Each item should have a limited number of repairs. No soul binding mechanism. Everything should be tradeable. "Sell that uber weapon made by best crafter from best resources and added raid drops. Of course it is not worth that much anymore as it can be repaired only two more times."

    Crafters and salvagers should also be able to deconstruct broken items for a chance of getting some resources back and perhaps even drop only items that were also used.

    Repairers and salvagers should be better at their stuff then crafters. But they should use different more expensive items for their trade.

    Quests (if any) should offer resources and other items that help crafters instead of giving ready to use items. Also recipes for special items, favors of special NPCs that can provide better items etc.

    I think that crafters should be equally important than adventurers. But each and every adventurer should be able to loot items that when are brought to crafter can be used to improve his/hers item.

     

     

  • randomtrandomt no thanks, BCMember UncommonPosts: 1,217

    EvE style regional markets.. in as much quantities as in eve, swg style resources (different stats affecting the craft process end results, different region have access to different types of resources and quantities, affecting local prices, lets people play trade merchants), ryzom style game items (mostly player made, results based on parts quality, parts being parts of mobs, the loot)

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  • HvymetalHvymetal San Diego, CAMember Posts: 355

    I prefer a free market, however I prefer when equivelent items to what is crafted are available in the loot tables. It's great if you want to craft. But I don't like being forced to either craft myself ( I can't stand it) or be forced to find someone selling something I may need. I like to have the option to be able and adventure for my loot, the way I look at it that is my characters job, an adventurer.

  • ImpacatusImpacatus San Diego, CAMember Posts: 436

     

     

    Originally posted by Hvymetal


    I prefer a free market, however I prefer when equivelent items to what is crafted are available in the loot tables. It's great if you want to craft. But I don't like being forced to either craft myself ( I can't stand it) or be forced to find someone selling something I may need. I like to have the option to be able and adventure for my loot, the way I look at it that is my characters job, an adventurer.

    I'm sure many of the crafters don't want to be forced to adventure either.  That's what trade is for. :) 

    The problem is there's no reason for the market if anyone can produce everything they need.  Interdependence is needed to encourage interaction and trade, and to tie all the different playstyles into one economy. 

    Actually, it sounds like you might be the only person who's posted on this thread so far who would prefer a planned economy.  The goals of the philosophy are more in line with yours (letting players do what they want without having to interact).  That's not really what the free market is about.

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  • AntariousAntarious Greenville, SCMember UncommonPosts: 2,783

    Originally posted by Impacatus


     
     
    Originally posted by Hvymetal


    I prefer a free market, however I prefer when equivelent items to what is crafted are available in the loot tables. It's great if you want to craft. But I don't like being forced to either craft myself ( I can't stand it) or be forced to find someone selling something I may need. I like to have the option to be able and adventure for my loot, the way I look at it that is my characters job, an adventurer.

    I'm sure many of the crafters don't want to be forced to adventure either.  That's what trade is for. :) 

    The problem is there's no reason for the market if anyone can produce everything they need.  Interdependence is needed to encourage interaction and trade, and to tie all the different playstyles into one economy. 

    Actually, it sounds like you might be the only person who's posted on this thread so far who would prefer a planned economy.  The goals of the philosophy are more in line with yours (letting players do what they want without having to interact).  That's not really what the free market is about.

    ^^ That pretty much was why I stopped crafting.  To many developers tried to follow that misguided line of thought and ended up with systems that didn't work... at all..

    I started to write a long drawn out response but realized its late.. I haven't slept and logic/being coherent isn't going to be with me at this moment.

    Let's just say the biggest issue with MMO's/crafting in general.. is that there is no long term reason or market for crafters.  Most all games you don't replace anything (as your raid gear never wears out).  Then if you look at the player market prices (eq2 is a good example for this) who in their right mind would want to replace their gear.

    UO had the best player market imho.. I ran crafters for the 6 years I played and had no lack of sales.

    Then again what I sold things at was an amount easy for a player to make and the game mechanics at the time.. well you had to replace things often.

    Right now after the "new player" market wears off.. most games only have the alt market.  As long as developers follow that trend.. the only thing Interdependancy does... is stifle the market even more.

    Just for me personally.. the more games move to "raiding/uber loot" being the general design.  I realize that crafting is going to be less and less of what it ever used to be.

  • ImpacatusImpacatus San Diego, CAMember Posts: 436

    Don't misunderstand me, I don't advocate a planned economy.  I was just saying that it seemed more in line with what the previous poster wanted.

    I believe in interdependency and a free market.  Most mmo economies are badly broken to the point where they don't harness the full potential of the market to be the center of player life.  The main issues I see are:

    -Inflation: There are rarely enough gold sinks to counteract the buckets of gold you pull from rat corpses

    -MUDflation: Items become worthless after a better one becomes available, to a player or to the game itself.

    -Lack of decay- Items lasting forever stifles demand.

    -Junk flooding- In games where you raise your skill or xp by crafting or looting, the market gets flooded with items produced for these purposes, ruining their sale value.

    -Stratification- All too often, the PvE guys have all the money and independence, leaving the rest of the playerbase to fight over their crumbs.

    -Lack of interdependence.

    There are probably a couple of other big issues, but those are more complex.  I have ideas to mostly fix these, posted some of them in the economics forum.  I'd like a game that offered content for many different playstyles, and tied them all together in a well run, interdependant, free market economy. (not looking for suggestions on games, just saying)

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  • RabbitgodRabbitgod Janesville, WIMember Posts: 58

    Depends on weather or not their is a system for gear to be distroyed, either through combat or a wear and tear system. If those things are in place then a free market is best. But if its like FFXI where equipment rarely ever leaves the system you need to put in to place some kind of planed economy.

     

     

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