Aside from this issue, Virtrium is a wonderful company.
My point about Chaos vs. Order is that this may easily be a non-gamewide issue. The customer support reaction wouldn't vary by server of course, but the slagfests themselves are probably unlikely to occur on Order. So if you'd like to support niche games with unique features and companies that don't buy into blind drives for mass appeal, you can play on Order or even try Blight.
----------- In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on August 13, 2008.
I'd agree and I was mostly enjoying the game until that incident.
Virtrium had already fixed a lot of the technical problems that I'd encountered my two previous times trying the game. And they seem to have continued fixing and improving things since I left. It's definitely a better development culture than Horizons has ever had before.
I think as far as attracting new players - the big sell is always going to be dragons. And at least at the moment, I don't think any other mmo comes close to Horizons when it comes to building. Had almost the top three floors of my lair done... A bit grindy, but very satisfying.
The biggest hurdle is probably going to be engine related - old graphics and long load times. People who've played other mmos could really find them a problem.
But niche games etc. are popping up left, right and centre. And if anyone ever made another mmo where you could play dragons...
Some of those big games are releasing prematurely and accordingly limiting themselves to niche status.
And probably your 'quiet sci-fi projects'. There's a surprising number of mmos being developed that are doing so very quietly, managing to reach very late stages of development without attracting any attention. And some of those games look really good.
I think the technology has also reached the point where decent games can be developed cheaply enough that we're going to see more and more niche mmos. Like there's that game engine that's been developed that anyone can use to develop an mmo and it's free to use - you just have to then pay something like 10% commission on the game's profits when it's launched.
I read an article about them here but can't find it now. Had a look around and I think this is them.
And there are other development platforms for sale.
And that's probably what Virtirum should be looking towards long-term. It's good that they're getting Horizons into shape, but the engine is getting to the point of being tragically outdated AND someone else could come along and relatively cheaply develop a game which has all of Horizons' strengths and none of its weaknesses.
I remember playing this when it first came out. It was one of the few games I was really excited about but quite due to the problems the game had at the time and well time. Glad that the security issues are fix and they are finally back in the black. I was worried about coming back before due to that and was afraid it was going to be canceled. I'm downloading the trial now. Might not be on until tomorrow evening though.
I loved playing a dragon before (still makes this game pretty unique) and though the crafting was fun. Hopefully I can join a decent guild and have a nice time.
Personally I'd advise trying to join one of the older, more established guilds. And research first rather than just flaunting your availability on a chat channel.
Originally posted by green13 The second time I tried a Horizons free trial I was in there for all of four hours, the last two spent watching three players viciously attacking practically everyone else in the chat channel and all I could think was, "how does this happen?"
As I said earlier, some people are very good at going right to the edge of what's acceptable without actually crossing over it. I can understand why you might feel that reporting this kind of behavior won't do any good; however, the simple truth is that nothing can be done unless it IS reported.
The basis for all action is documentation and reporting. Even though the incident you reported was determined not to be a violation, that report is still noted on the player's account. If other players report other offensive behavior by the same person, those notes will build up. If the person you reported was one of the ones attacking other players in MP chat, well, now you're setting up to show a pattern of disruptive and abusive behavior.
No company is going to retain a problem player who drives off customers. That simply makes no sense. The issue is getting enough proof together to support taking action against that player's account. Even the most offensive problem player deserves fair due process.
Um, Klaus, you seem to be hard of hearing... or reading.
Virtrium did not deem that the incident I reported wasn't a ToS violation. I still have all of the emails. In none do they explicitly say or even come close to hinting at this.
First they tried to avoid even dealing with it as a complaint, blowing it off with a "Thank you for this information."
Then when I came back with - "this isn't information, it's a complaint" what they decided was that based on everything the player said, which ended with:
"I really don't give a flying f%^k that I offend you and your holier than thou attitude is pretty f%^king humerous"
that the player in question had already achieved an understanding that they shouldn't have said what they said and was unlikely to do it again so they didn't need to speak to him:
"It appears to us that [Player's name] understood that no one really wanted any more of that kind of inappropriate chat - and we don't think he'll continue such behavior."
You could read a lot of things into the player's statement, and all of the other things they said, but what Virtrium came up with doesn't fly. And I asked them for clarification on how they arrived at this conclusion and they chose to ignore it. Can you explain it?
So Virtrium started by not treating it as a complaint, then when pushed came up with a response which doesn't make sense and then refused to explain it. Which is really kind of screwy cos all they had to do was say to the player, "Hey, blah blah this was reported. Did you say it? (we have a screenshot and could ask others who saw it). You understand this isn't appropriate blah blah ToS. Please don't do this kind of thing again."
Cos the thing is, I wouldn't have even reported it to Virtrium if the player hadn't so clearly demonstrated a lack of understanding that he shouldn't have said this - even ignoring his previous history for this sort of thing. I never go straight for that. Sometimes people don't know, they slip up, whatever, and a brief word or two is all that's needed. But I tried that and just got blown away with personal attacks.
So when he started sending me abusive tells I figured it was best to put him on ignore, ticket it and leave Virtrium to deal with it.
And I don't think the issue is about taking action against a player's account. The issue is about providing a gaming environment which mimimises the occurrence of this sort of thing, and that starts with talking to players who step out of line. Ignoring them is negligent, and in fact, weakens the legal protection that the ToS provides Virtrium against lawsuits.
Everything Virtrium did just screamed "We don't want to deal with this". And having now been through this process, I could understand how the community problems I've seen (on Chaos) could persist - which are so much worse than I've ever seen in any other mmo.
Originally posted by KlausW
No company is going to retain a problem player who drives off customers.
And just to be clear, I wasn't driven off by this or any other player. Six emails were exchanged between Virtrium and myself over a two week period regarding this matter. They didn't even try to explain how they came to their conclusion (quoted abover and in earlier posts), even when I asked them to.
I just can't give my money to a company that tolerates this kind of thing without implictly endorsing it.
Well, green13, I think this sounds like a good time for us to agree to disagree. As I said, I think you were right to confront this person, but (again, just my personal opinion) I do think you're over-reacting a bit. Not a big deal, though. Reasonable people may reasonably differ and all that.
Good luck in your new game, whatever that turns out to be. :-)
I do think you're over-reacting a bit. Not a big deal, though.
Most folk would agree with you on this point - but I'm one of those ethical shopper types. And I agree it's not a big deal as far as my not playing any more. It's a good game and I enjoyed it. But it's just a game and there are plenty of others to play.
But joking about burning 1.3 million muslims alive and destroying a pillar of their faith - that's by far the worst thing I've ever seen in an mmo. And Virtrium's tolerance of that, and the insincere manner in which they dealt with me, is cause for shame.
Vitrium has a vested interest in not pissing off older players. Vitrium needs older players to keep the newer ones. The game won't draw new players on its own.
Perhaps that was the reason for not taking the issue more seriously. This has been happening since the game released.
However its a double edged sword. If that player was behaving in such a way this would drive off new players. But I have found that some in horizons do not like more people playing around in their sandbox. Never grasping that it takes more than their $15.00 a month to keep the game going.
Hades - that's pretty much my take on it re Virtrium's treatment of the matter. They've limped along for so long with such a small player base that they've had to turn a blind eye to behaviour that is intolerable in other mmos.
I think I understand what you're saying about that older and somewhat possessive element of the community too - players whose multiple subscriptions have literally kept the game alive through the long drought. And they react with some jealousy towards new players.
Though like I've said before - I think the community is mostly good. It's just marred by a very vocal and unrestrained minority.
A few months ago I tried the game as a newbie. The response I got on questions was generally cold. There were a couple of helpful replies but the general sentiment towards new players is one of a threatened stance.
They know that as more players try the game Vitrium is going to be FORCED to fix some of the more notable exploits and issues. Fixes that will change the way these old diehards play the game.
The MMO market is tough. As long as the community continues to hang on to old habits the game will eventually fade to dust. In cases like this sooner rather than later.
I would agree that the Horizons community is frequently over-rated. Which is why I weigh in as a dissenter on that point. It's misleading to prospective players who read these forums.
But my experience has been that the helpful players there are incredibly helpful. When I was playing there, there were people in some cases giving up hours of their time to help me out with stuff, eg. RoP. And I was fortunate that the second guild I joined was really, really good. So I generally managed to simply avoid the less desirable elements of the community.
But there are also a lot of prats. I too had that cold experience with some noob questions in chat channels. Cos a lot of those helpful players aren't on 24/7 and if you login at the wrong time you could get your head bitten off for asking a simple question that isn't covered in tutorials or help documentation.
I seriously think they need to log the chat channels and ban players from channels when they repeatedly abuse them.
And yes, the graphics are horribly outdated - in some respects. The landscapes and some spell effects aren't great, but characters do well. Even on low settings, my dragon always looked stunningly detailed. I believe they overhauled the graphics engine a few years ago which did improve things a bit.
But even so the graphics are currently sufficiently dated that it is going to turn off players who aren't blown out their socks by the few things Istaria does really well.
I all so well know the feeling of being given the run around
I was effectively driven away by some who held a vested ( read employed/future emplyment ) when i questioned the price increase virtruim intorduced hard on the heels of them retaking the game back AFTER i was stiffed by eii for what effectively amounts to 3 yrs subs plus intrest.
Some on the HZ forum took it unto themselves to run a private hatred campaign that in the end had ME gagged for even speaking out about it and to this day they will come up with excuses marking ME being the badguy in all this
Effectivly this experiance has put me off mmo's , sure i play WoW but do not put in anywhere near the hours i once sunk into the Blight shard
I lost trust with the game and some of its people and that includes some of the dev team
Even with the name change i will never go back and i will never recomend this game to anyone
Comments
Aside from this issue, Virtrium is a wonderful company.
My point about Chaos vs. Order is that this may easily be a non-gamewide issue. The customer support reaction wouldn't vary by server of course, but the slagfests themselves are probably unlikely to occur on Order. So if you'd like to support niche games with unique features and companies that don't buy into blind drives for mass appeal, you can play on Order or even try Blight.
-----------
In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on August 13, 2008.
I'd agree and I was mostly enjoying the game until that incident.
Virtrium had already fixed a lot of the technical problems that I'd encountered my two previous times trying the game. And they seem to have continued fixing and improving things since I left. It's definitely a better development culture than Horizons has ever had before.
I think as far as attracting new players - the big sell is always going to be dragons. And at least at the moment, I don't think any other mmo comes close to Horizons when it comes to building. Had almost the top three floors of my lair done... A bit grindy, but very satisfying.
The biggest hurdle is probably going to be engine related - old graphics and long load times. People who've played other mmos could really find them a problem.
But niche games etc. are popping up left, right and centre. And if anyone ever made another mmo where you could play dragons...
-----------
In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on August 13, 2008.
Well if could dare to be a little facetious...
Some of those big games are releasing prematurely and accordingly limiting themselves to niche status.
And probably your 'quiet sci-fi projects'. There's a surprising number of mmos being developed that are doing so very quietly, managing to reach very late stages of development without attracting any attention. And some of those games look really good.
I think the technology has also reached the point where decent games can be developed cheaply enough that we're going to see more and more niche mmos. Like there's that game engine that's been developed that anyone can use to develop an mmo and it's free to use - you just have to then pay something like 10% commission on the game's profits when it's launched.
I read an article about them here but can't find it now. Had a look around and I think this is them.
And there are other development platforms for sale.
And that's probably what Virtirum should be looking towards long-term. It's good that they're getting Horizons into shape, but the engine is getting to the point of being tragically outdated AND someone else could come along and relatively cheaply develop a game which has all of Horizons' strengths and none of its weaknesses.
I remember playing this when it first came out. It was one of the few games I was really excited about but quite due to the problems the game had at the time and well time. Glad that the security issues are fix and they are finally back in the black. I was worried about coming back before due to that and was afraid it was going to be canceled. I'm downloading the trial now. Might not be on until tomorrow evening though.
I loved playing a dragon before (still makes this game pretty unique) and though the crafting was fun. Hopefully I can join a decent guild and have a nice time.
Personally I'd advise trying to join one of the older, more established guilds. And research first rather than just flaunting your availability on a chat channel.
http://community.istaria.com/ (there are guild links in the left-hand menu, down the bottom)
http://community.istaria.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=75
I know I've seen another list somewhere but can't find it just now.
As I said earlier, some people are very good at going right to the edge of what's acceptable without actually crossing over it. I can understand why you might feel that reporting this kind of behavior won't do any good; however, the simple truth is that nothing can be done unless it IS reported.
The basis for all action is documentation and reporting. Even though the incident you reported was determined not to be a violation, that report is still noted on the player's account. If other players report other offensive behavior by the same person, those notes will build up. If the person you reported was one of the ones attacking other players in MP chat, well, now you're setting up to show a pattern of disruptive and abusive behavior.
No company is going to retain a problem player who drives off customers. That simply makes no sense. The issue is getting enough proof together to support taking action against that player's account. Even the most offensive problem player deserves fair due process.
Guildleader, Mithril Council, Chaos
Um, Klaus, you seem to be hard of hearing... or reading.
Virtrium did not deem that the incident I reported wasn't a ToS violation. I still have all of the emails. In none do they explicitly say or even come close to hinting at this.
First they tried to avoid even dealing with it as a complaint, blowing it off with a "Thank you for this information."
Then when I came back with - "this isn't information, it's a complaint" what they decided was that based on everything the player said, which ended with:
"I really don't give a flying f%^k that I offend you and your holier than thou attitude is pretty f%^king humerous"
that the player in question had already achieved an understanding that they shouldn't have said what they said and was unlikely to do it again so they didn't need to speak to him:
"It appears to us that [Player's name] understood that no one really wanted any more of that kind of inappropriate chat - and we don't think he'll continue such behavior."
You could read a lot of things into the player's statement, and all of the other things they said, but what Virtrium came up with doesn't fly. And I asked them for clarification on how they arrived at this conclusion and they chose to ignore it. Can you explain it?
So Virtrium started by not treating it as a complaint, then when pushed came up with a response which doesn't make sense and then refused to explain it. Which is really kind of screwy cos all they had to do was say to the player, "Hey, blah blah this was reported. Did you say it? (we have a screenshot and could ask others who saw it). You understand this isn't appropriate blah blah ToS. Please don't do this kind of thing again."
Cos the thing is, I wouldn't have even reported it to Virtrium if the player hadn't so clearly demonstrated a lack of understanding that he shouldn't have said this - even ignoring his previous history for this sort of thing. I never go straight for that. Sometimes people don't know, they slip up, whatever, and a brief word or two is all that's needed. But I tried that and just got blown away with personal attacks.
So when he started sending me abusive tells I figured it was best to put him on ignore, ticket it and leave Virtrium to deal with it.
And I don't think the issue is about taking action against a player's account. The issue is about providing a gaming environment which mimimises the occurrence of this sort of thing, and that starts with talking to players who step out of line. Ignoring them is negligent, and in fact, weakens the legal protection that the ToS provides Virtrium against lawsuits.
Everything Virtrium did just screamed "We don't want to deal with this". And having now been through this process, I could understand how the community problems I've seen (on Chaos) could persist - which are so much worse than I've ever seen in any other mmo.
And just to be clear, I wasn't driven off by this or any other player. Six emails were exchanged between Virtrium and myself over a two week period regarding this matter. They didn't even try to explain how they came to their conclusion (quoted abover and in earlier posts), even when I asked them to.
I just can't give my money to a company that tolerates this kind of thing without implictly endorsing it.
Well, green13, I think this sounds like a good time for us to agree to disagree. As I said, I think you were right to confront this person, but (again, just my personal opinion) I do think you're over-reacting a bit. Not a big deal, though. Reasonable people may reasonably differ and all that.
Good luck in your new game, whatever that turns out to be. :-)
Guildleader, Mithril Council, Chaos
But joking about burning 1.3 million muslims alive and destroying a pillar of their faith - that's by far the worst thing I've ever seen in an mmo. And Virtrium's tolerance of that, and the insincere manner in which they dealt with me, is cause for shame.
Vitrium has a vested interest in not pissing off older players. Vitrium needs older players to keep the newer ones. The game won't draw new players on its own.
Perhaps that was the reason for not taking the issue more seriously. This has been happening since the game released.
However its a double edged sword. If that player was behaving in such a way this would drive off new players. But I have found that some in horizons do not like more people playing around in their sandbox. Never grasping that it takes more than their $15.00 a month to keep the game going.
Hades - that's pretty much my take on it re Virtrium's treatment of the matter. They've limped along for so long with such a small player base that they've had to turn a blind eye to behaviour that is intolerable in other mmos.
I think I understand what you're saying about that older and somewhat possessive element of the community too - players whose multiple subscriptions have literally kept the game alive through the long drought. And they react with some jealousy towards new players.
Though like I've said before - I think the community is mostly good. It's just marred by a very vocal and unrestrained minority.
the horizons community is over rated.
A few months ago I tried the game as a newbie. The response I got on questions was generally cold. There were a couple of helpful replies but the general sentiment towards new players is one of a threatened stance.
They know that as more players try the game Vitrium is going to be FORCED to fix some of the more notable exploits and issues. Fixes that will change the way these old diehards play the game.
The MMO market is tough. As long as the community continues to hang on to old habits the game will eventually fade to dust. In cases like this sooner rather than later.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
I would agree that the Horizons community is frequently over-rated. Which is why I weigh in as a dissenter on that point. It's misleading to prospective players who read these forums.
But my experience has been that the helpful players there are incredibly helpful. When I was playing there, there were people in some cases giving up hours of their time to help me out with stuff, eg. RoP. And I was fortunate that the second guild I joined was really, really good. So I generally managed to simply avoid the less desirable elements of the community.
But there are also a lot of prats. I too had that cold experience with some noob questions in chat channels. Cos a lot of those helpful players aren't on 24/7 and if you login at the wrong time you could get your head bitten off for asking a simple question that isn't covered in tutorials or help documentation.
I seriously think they need to log the chat channels and ban players from channels when they repeatedly abuse them.
And yes, the graphics are horribly outdated - in some respects. The landscapes and some spell effects aren't great, but characters do well. Even on low settings, my dragon always looked stunningly detailed. I believe they overhauled the graphics engine a few years ago which did improve things a bit.
But even so the graphics are currently sufficiently dated that it is going to turn off players who aren't blown out their socks by the few things Istaria does really well.
I all so well know the feeling of being given the run around
I was effectively driven away by some who held a vested ( read employed/future emplyment ) when i questioned the price increase virtruim intorduced hard on the heels of them retaking the game back AFTER i was stiffed by eii for what effectively amounts to 3 yrs subs plus intrest.
Some on the HZ forum took it unto themselves to run a private hatred campaign that in the end had ME gagged for even speaking out about it and to this day they will come up with excuses marking ME being the badguy in all this
Effectivly this experiance has put me off mmo's , sure i play WoW but do not put in anywhere near the hours i once sunk into the Blight shard
I lost trust with the game and some of its people and that includes some of the dev team
Even with the name change i will never go back and i will never recomend this game to anyone