Dynamic Combat

ZindaihasZindaihas Seattle, WAMember UncommonPosts: 3,637

What does it mean?  How would you define it ?  Since combat makes up the majority of the action portion of an MMORPG, it is a very important, perhaps the most important part of gameplay.  This subject has been discussed before and it means different things to different people.  To some it means twitch based action, to others it means different styles of fighting.  Whatever it is, it needs to be more than just push an attack button and wait to see the results.

To me, dynamic combat means not having to fight the same way each time.  Nothing is more boring than going on automatic pilot when the war starts, whether its push a button or push many buttons.  It should involve strategy.  Everyone and everything should have stengths and weaknesses in combat.  Your job as a gamer is to figure out what your opponents' strengths are so you can avoid them and what their weaknesses are so you can expoit them.  At the same time you have to know your own strengths and weaknesses so you can factor those into your combat strategy.

I don't have much interest in twitch based combat, at least, not physical twitching.  I'm more interested in mental twitching.

Comments

  • HandsomeHussHandsomeHuss Toronto, ONMember UncommonPosts: 100

    Many games already incorporate this 'dynamic combat,' most PvP based games that I can think of are this way. EVE Online for one, DAOC, Guild Wars, etc. Even WoW to an extent.

    I'm not too sure what you are trying to say here. That combat in today's games is lacking? Well, as far as PvP goes, as I stated above with those examples, I disagree. Strategy and player skill are in fact needed in those games, and do not consist of pushing a button and waiting to see the results.

    As for PvE, I would agree. But that is not so much because of the style of combat in the game, but moreso the enemy AI. Games need to start incorporating more dynamic events and encounters. I havent played WoW in a while and am by no means a fanboy, but this is something that Blizzard has done quite well. Some of the raid encounters are quite fun and do require a great deal of skill and strategy to complete. That needs to become the standard though... Imagine a game where everytime you fought a mob, it could possibly do something entirely different and unexpected.

    Or did I miss your point entirely?

  • feizhoubu123feizhoubu123 sdfMember Posts: 2
    Originally posted by HandsomeHuss


    Many games already incorporate this 'dynamic combat,' most PvP based games that I can think of are this way. EVE Online for one, DAOC, Guild Wars, etc. Even WoW to an extent.
    I'm not too sure what you are trying to say here. That combat in today's games is lacking? Well, as far as PvP goes, as I stated above with those examples, I disagree. Strategy and player skill are in fact needed in those games, and do not consist of pushing a button and waiting to see the results.
    As for PvE, I would agree. But that is not so much because of the style of combat in the game, but moreso the enemy AI. Games need to start incorporating more dynamic events and encounters. I havent played WoW in a while and am by no means a fanboy, but this is something that Blizzard has done quite well. Some of the raid encounters are quite fun and do require a great deal of skill and strategy to complete. That needs to become the standard though... Imagine a game where everytime you fought a mob, it could possibly do something entirely different and unexpected.
    Or did I miss your point entirely?

    Agree. In fact, combact in many games is very intelligent.

  • CzzarreCzzarre Cleveland, OHMember Posts: 3,742

    I think the fact is that your running up against the limitations of the medium. Although, I agree more can be done to make PvP more dynamic, there will always be some measure of  'twitch based combat'. even in the games listed above which are thought to be very 'Non-dynamic' to the masses, the best oppponants that you will face in any of them are those who used thier brains and thought outside the box when entering battle.

    Torrential

  • CleffyIICleffyII The Moon, CAMember Posts: 3,440

    The one thing I hate about most mmos is the lackluster combat system with no real thought in it or strategy.  Most of the time you replay the same skills and attack patterns continously over a million times.  One reason I liked Tabula Rasa and Granado Espada is because it isn't like that, you actually are rewarded for doing something atleast a little tactful.  I am really not interested in any of the upcoming mmos that don't address the combat system.

    image

  • ScriarScriar Milton keynesMember Posts: 772

    Dynamic is when the combat is always different. Twitch based combat is like that no fight is ever really the same, but i suppose you can say that about all combat games.

    I think you cant really class games as having dynamic combat because they all do in some respect, even wow. Some are obviously more "dynamic" than others though where there are more things that can happen per fight, like for instance more chances for things to go wrong, more ways of reaching the same goal like the defeat of an opponent.

    In wow for instance majority of fights you can usually predict what is going to happen quite well and it is almost always correct. So the game isnt that dynamic. Where as if you started the game like in a fps and there was no way of predicting if the other team was going to lose win etc then that is dynamic combat.

    Hope that makes some sense bit late for me to type really long explanations ;p

    basically im saying the more unpredictable the fight is the more dynamic it is.

  • Jimmy_ScytheJimmy_Scythe Macomb, ILMember CommonPosts: 3,586

    While games like Eve and Guild Wars add quite a bit more interaction to combat, I think it's fair to say that most MMORPGs stress the ROLLing in RPG combat a little too much. Obviously, there should be some randomness and stats in an RPG, but it shouldn't overshadow the tactical and strategic elements that RPG combat is built upon. It should be the players cleverness and good decisions that determine the outcome of any given combat and not character stats.

    I know I'm going to get flamed fro this, but Puzzle Quest is a good example of how combat can be balanced between stats and player decisions without resorting to "twitch." Yes, the game is basically Bejeweled meets Final Fantasy, but you'll notice that they don't sacrifice any of the RPG elements in the design. Loot, restating, randomness that can swing the tide of combat, it's all there. If there is any good example of "dynamic combat," this would be it.

  • RegikoRegiko Dallas, TXMember Posts: 6

    Dynamic, huh?



    Well, I suppose you can define it as a non-repetitive act.



    If you want to go into detail, you could say that it is a progressive system that never occours the exact same time.

    Fightining the same monsters is one of the most crucial parts. Another huge part is the order in which you do things. Most combat systems make it so to get a special damage bonus you have to do things in a certian order, which leads to very very repetitive and predictable gameplay. You're never going to get that much action in a game where you move slowly or you have to click a bunch of icons. It's just the truth. Dynamic combat can occour though. The line between dynamic and action combat is very thin and it's usually accompanied. Sure pressing a series of buttons is ok but it's mainly about control.

     

    Control is the key aspect of dynamic combat. Instead of clicking the monster and hitting it, you could hit it's head, or its arm, or leg, stuff like that. That would be very dynamic however, putting restrictions like, hit the arms and then hit the head for 500 bonus damage will make it very undynamic. It's not something you want to impliment into your game.

  • MR-BubblesMR-Bubbles HampshireMember Posts: 649

    Not 100% sure on what Dynamic Combat means but this may help you work it out.

     

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dynamic

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Retired from: Neocron, Everquest, Everquest 2, Guild Wars, RF Online and Final Fantasy VII

    Currently Playing : EvE Online.

  • TatumTatum houston, TXMember Posts: 1,153

    Like others have said, MMO combat is usually pretty predictable.  You have multiple hotbars worth of attacks, defenses, counters, etc., but in general, you have one main formula that you repeat over and over. 

     

  • The_Boo_CatThe_Boo_Cat Staff Writer Newcastle Upon TyneMember UncommonPosts: 157

    Try DDO...it's really the only game apart from Eve that I have played that actually brings player skill into the mix. 

    Some of the higher level quests require a little thought to fight your way through successfully and using your skills in innovative ways can help.  You certainly don't just use the same skill chain repeatedly.

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  • HuntnHuntn Rosemount, MNMember Posts: 284

    Traditional RPG or MMORPG combat is designate target, then click click click. Usually 3rd person perspective? In most (all?) cases attacks against your avatar can't be blocked. Something like WoW.

    Dynamic combat is when you are able to do things like aim at particular body parts and when you can block attacks but it seems like this works better in First Person perspective. I don't really see it as a twitch issue, but maybe it is. Something like Oblivion.

    -----------------------
    Past MMOs- Planetside, WoW.
    Current MMO:
    Current Games: L4D, Skyrim
    Tried- ATITD, EQ2, SoR, Vanguard,SL,LOTRO,SotNW,SWTOR.
    Anticipating- GW2, Planetside2

  • ZindaihasZindaihas Seattle, WAMember UncommonPosts: 3,637

    Originally posted by HandsomeHuss


    Many games already incorporate this 'dynamic combat,' most PvP based games that I can think of are this way. EVE Online for one, DAOC, Guild Wars, etc. Even WoW to an extent.
    I'm not too sure what you are trying to say here. That combat in today's games is lacking? Well, as far as PvP goes, as I stated above with those examples, I disagree. Strategy and player skill are in fact needed in those games, and do not consist of pushing a button and waiting to see the results.
    As for PvE, I would agree. But that is not so much because of the style of combat in the game, but moreso the enemy AI. Games need to start incorporating more dynamic events and encounters. I havent played WoW in a while and am by no means a fanboy, but this is something that Blizzard has done quite well. Some of the raid encounters are quite fun and do require a great deal of skill and strategy to complete. That needs to become the standard though... Imagine a game where everytime you fought a mob, it could possibly do something entirely different and unexpected.
    Or did I miss your point entirely?

    I can't comment on EVE or Guild Wars, but I would not classify DAoC's combat as being dynamic.  It's been a long time since I've played it, but as I recall its combat system was pretty repetitive.  I played a hunter and one thing I do remember is that he more proficient fighting with a spear than any other weapon.  I found that too limiting, especially since I love wielding swords.

    I'm not sure I even know what I mean by dynamic combat.  Whether it means using different fighting styles from battle to battle or narrowing it down even further to different attacks from melee round to melee round.  I've been wracking my brain trying to think of ways to make combat as versatile as possible and not just be the same old battle time after time.

  • CactusmanXCactusmanX Hendersonville, NCMember Posts: 2,218

    Dynamic to me means changing, the ability to fight and not have to do the exact same thing twice, unless you wanted to.

    Two things I think would help.  What I call liquid combat and terrain interaction.

    Liquid combat just refers to to ability to string together attacks to create your own attacks, this way combat is easily molded and it flows (like liquid :) ).  The only attacks you have are the most basic, basic attacks can be combined with other attacks or movement in numerous ways to create new attacks.  For example dash plus punch equals a type of bash skill that stuns or knockdowns.  Crouch plus kick equals a leg sweep, grapple plus side step equals a side shove and so forth.  This way instead of having a bar of 10 or 12 skills to use at the moment you have have 4 or 5 attacks and some movement options, which can be combined in many ways effectively giving you many more options, or so the idea goes :P.

    Terrain interaction is just the ability to use to terrain in combat, and out too.  More than jumping and swimming, like climbing and swinging from things, throwing things, knocking people against walls and such.  Rather simple touches that add options. 

    Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit

  • MimzelMimzel KristiansandMember UncommonPosts: 375

    I'm gonna give this topic a shot. As someone else said, you will find dynamic combat elements in many of the games today. You'll even find it in games you deem to have very booring and repetative combat... In all (I think) mmos Ive played to date the combat relies heavily on semi-automation - I push a button and the game itself takes care of the rest. In some of the games you dont even have to be facing your oponent since the game will automatically turn you in the right direction.

    Tabula Rasa has recently launched. I havent tried it yet, but I read that it has more of a FPS feel to it than what is usual in the MMO genre. TR may be a great or sucky game for all I know, but that's not my point. My point is that the combat mechanics in our genre really need some original thinking. While twitch based combat is nothing new in itself, it is in regards to MMOs.

    Before writing this reply I envisioned how combat could have been in some of the traditional MMOs out there. I dont really see many buttons to push at all, really - at least not for every class. Some classes might still need more buttons to push (spellcasters/healers). For melee classes the kind of damage, debuff etc you do is dependent on what area of the body you hit, and how you hit it. With my scout equipped tree elf I engage the orc and try to stun it while targetting its stomach. That doesnt work, cause this maneuver needs me to target his lower legs or alternately the back of his neck. My sword fails to do any damage since the blade just swings off the armor. The only two places the orc doesnt have much armor is near his ancles and his throat. Since I'm an elf and he is an orc I am more agile and faster than him, and after a little bit of running around dodging swings from his blade I get behind him, lean forward and swing my sword at his ancles. He is stunned. I jump infront of him and jolt my knife through his throat. Dead orc.

    My vision is more based on FPS style thinking, but I have never played an FPS that uses anything else than long ranged weapons (+ knife). Im envisioning an MMO where you actually guide your sword with your mouse (and a way to guide your shield too). The combat isnt about trying to stab the enemy with a hundred stings with your blade to get his HP to zero, but to hit your enemy in the "right" places. Also you can divert an enemy swing by guiding your blade to counter it.

    Ok, well - enough ramblings from me. This "vision" is really the ultimate combat experience for me. I get it in FPS games, but I do not get the richness that an MMO world has. A hybrid between the two sounds really good to me so I might just check Tabula Rasa out.

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