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I'm speechless - Darkfall .. is coming

13

Comments

  • FunKPandaFunKPanda Member Posts: 155

    its been said once, it'll be said again... vaporware

    "Without funk, is there hope for panda?" -Derivative of Ishmael

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    A site for pro and recreational gaming.

  • abbabaabbaba Member Posts: 1,143
    Originally posted by ianubisi


     

    Originally posted by AmazingAvery

    25% Hype 15% Trailers and 60% Screenshots.


     

    = 100% vaporware.

    At least they're not charging people to play the Beta (*yet*), ala Mourning and Dark and Light.

  • OrcaOrca Member UncommonPosts: 629


    Originally posted by CleffyII
    Darkfall coming in 2018.

    Ah darn... i thought it was going to be released in 2017.

    Oak/Tree them!

    Futilez - Mature MMORPG Community

    Correcting people since birth.

  • SuitepeeSuitepee Member Posts: 921

    "Good things come to those who wait."

    Remind me to point & laugh when all the vaporware critics are dying to play Darkfall some time down the road.

  • Xris375Xris375 Member Posts: 1,005
    Originally posted by whitedelight

    Originally posted by Xris375


     
    Originally posted by Airspell


      Difference being AoC and WAR have release dates and are in BETA.  Darkfall is not in beta, and there is no signs of it coming any time soon.  Also since both AoC and WAR are in BETA there are people playing it, so for certain people like myself who know people in those BETAs we can tell if a game is going to be decent or not.  Darkfall promises alot, shows very little, and is severly outdated.
    Hmm...AoC is back in development isn't it ? They were suppose to release in 2006 and have 4 delays and are now supposed to be released in march 2008. As for war they had to push back to Q1 2008. So they are not really goo examples of smooth MMO releases. I'm not sure what you mean with outdated though, is it the graphics you mean ? From what I see it is not worse than what I see in WAR or AoC. You need to update your DF lore :)

     

    I don't know what you mean by good examples of releases as neither game are out yet. The difference, that you seem to have ignored in Airspell's post is that Age of Conan and Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning  is that they  have working  betas going on right now, where DarkFall Online will not be in beta anytime soon. Players are actually playing these two games and many people got to play and enjoy both of these games at Gen Con and now at Dragon Con. Darkfall is still way behind in developement and they are wasting much of that loan on researching technology in hopes of self publishing a game because nobody seems to want to pick it up. Pushing a game back when you are in beta shows that you listen to your beta testers and want to make the game beta because of what they say. Pushing the beta back shows you do not truly have a working beta, as DarkFall Online has been claiming they have a working beta ready for players, yet they never open it up. And dpn't kid yourself, the graphics in BOTH AoC and WAR are better than that of DF, you need to update your MMORPG knowledge ;-)

    AoC may have working beta's but it is not a release candidate beta and the game is still in development. And to clearify, they are not good examples of releases because the games would be released already if they were. AoC is 2 years behind schedule now. You have done your research on DF and that is good. However them wasting loans on research is just speculation. Do you have evidence of this ? They may want to have extra cash ready for an evenual self publish. I agree with you, pushing back is a good thing if it enhance the game quality. However they have done this 4 times now since 2006 and that difficult control question is pehaps something they  should have discovered way earler than a couple of months before the final, final, final, final release ?! The devs of DF is currently discussing the internal or external publishing question. I understand that they want to use some time on this because HW on this scale is expensive to buy, set up and run. DF for me isn't about graphics its about features. I want a game without the limitations that class and levels impose on a game. Supporting DF is about showing how bored you are about the current MMOs available. Knowledge is one thing, opinions is another, graphics is in the realm of opinion and I don't think DF stands back to WAR or AoC.

    ---
    And when we got more women on the team, it was like ‘No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there.’ ”
    John Smedley, SOE

  • Xris375Xris375 Member Posts: 1,005

    Originally posted by Scriar

    Originally posted by Xris375

    Originally posted by Scriar


    Im speechless people still think this game is going to come out lol
    its been in development since 2001, and they have nothing to show for it.
    compare that to pirates of the burning sea, they've been in development i think since 2001 as well, and they have plenty to show for it.
    its like Aventurine haven't got a clue what they are doing.

    You are mixing Razorwax's DF and Aventurine's DF. Aventurine wasn't developing DF back in 2001.

    Im not confusing them, Darkfall has been in development since 2001, since thats when they started all the concept work/work on their engine etc. Yes they did restart in 2003 i believe, which you can see by screen shots, but it is still just an improved version of their old engine, with improved concepts based on what they had done before. thus its been in development since 2001.

    I belive it is highly doubtfall that it is much code, if any at all, in DF from the Razorwax era. But that is speculation. And so are you unless you have access to DF code :)

    ---
    And when we got more women on the team, it was like ‘No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there.’ ”
    John Smedley, SOE

  • ScriarScriar Member Posts: 772

     

    Originally posted by Xris375


     
    Originally posted by Scriar

    Originally posted by Xris375

    Originally posted by Scriar


    Im speechless people still think this game is going to come out lol
    its been in development since 2001, and they have nothing to show for it.
    compare that to pirates of the burning sea, they've been in development i think since 2001 as well, and they have plenty to show for it.
    its like Aventurine haven't got a clue what they are doing.

    You are mixing Razorwax's DF and Aventurine's DF. Aventurine wasn't developing DF back in 2001.

    Im not confusing them, Darkfall has been in development since 2001, since thats when they started all the concept work/work on their engine etc. Yes they did restart in 2003 i believe, which you can see by screen shots, but it is still just an improved version of their old engine, with improved concepts based on what they had done before. thus its been in development since 2001.

    I believe it is highly doubtful that it is much code, if any at all, in DF from the Razorwax era. But that is speculation. And so are you unless you have access to DF code :)

     

    crap just typed a long response for why people think this game is vapor, and then lent on the back button -_-

     

    anyway to summarize, they need to sit down with a respectable gaming site and do a video interview showing all the features that they supposedly now have fully functional according to their latest dev journal, otherwise people will just continue speculating whether its vapor or not.

    also, the code may not still be there but they did start their concept stage which is an important part of development in 2001, until they say otherwise, ill just go by that ;p

     

  • AirspellAirspell Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 1,391

      Let's just wait and see and laugh afterwards .  Hopefully they have half the features they brag about and we have a decent game to play :P  ....... in 3 years

    image

  • ZorvanZorvan Member CommonPosts: 8,912

    Originally posted by Airspell


      Let's just wait and see and laugh afterwards .  Hopefully they have half the features they brag about and we have a decent game to play :P  ....... in 30 years
    Fixed.

    Now, back to our show.....

  • gamerman98gamerman98 Member UncommonPosts: 807

    god this is funny seeing a bunch of ppl sit and pray for a game that IMO may never see the light of day...and if it does it will most likely disappoint most or if not all of you. Ill just sit back and watch the fireworks lol.

  • trallatralla Member Posts: 290

    Originally posted by CaesarsGhost


    Beta coming in 2002 with support for up to 50,000 Simotanious players... right?
     
    I really want them to pull it through.  But I worked for a MMO company, and I watched the DFO hype raise and fall like a regular wave theory...
    You want it, you got it.  If you feel like holding your breathe, you should... we'd be free of your dribble every 4 months then.
    yeah... roooight you worked for a mmo company ?

    then.. how can you get 10.000 to 50.000 players ? hmm.. please, some1 keep the noobs from this site.

    And yes, i'm a fanboy of darkfall because i cant stand all these level system mmos today..

    And honestly i dont care so much if this game takes another 2 years untill open beta, atleast some1 took the skill based gameplay to surface, and in this gameplay you actually need to THINK and use your brain to be good at.

  • ZorvanZorvan Member CommonPosts: 8,912
    Originally posted by tralla


     
    Originally posted by CaesarsGhost


    Beta coming in 2002 with support for up to 50,000 Simotanious players... right?
     
    I really want them to pull it through.  But I worked for a MMO company, and I watched the DFO hype raise and fall like a regular wave theory...
    You want it, you got it.  If you feel like holding your breathe, you should... we'd be free of your dribble every 4 months then.
    yeah... roooight you worked for a mmo company ?

     

    then.. how can you get 10.000 to 50.000 players ? hmm.. please, some1 keep the noobs from this site.

    And yes, i'm a fanboy of darkfall because i cant stand all these level system mmos today..

    And honestly i dont care so much if this game takes another 2 years untill open beta, atleast some1 took the skill based gameplay to surface, and in this gameplay you actually need to THINK and use your brain to be good at.

    Oughtta check things next time. CeasarsGhost did in fact work for an mmo company (Rapid Reality) and is now developing his own game. Although I find he and I disagree on things alot, credit where credit is due.

  • GameloadingGameloading Member UncommonPosts: 14,182
    Originally posted by tralla


     
    Originally posted by CaesarsGhost


    Beta coming in 2002 with support for up to 50,000 Simotanious players... right?
     
    I really want them to pull it through.  But I worked for a MMO company, and I watched the DFO hype raise and fall like a regular wave theory...
    You want it, you got it.  If you feel like holding your breathe, you should... we'd be free of your dribble every 4 months then.
    yeah... roooight you worked for a mmo company ?

     

    then.. how can you get 10.000 to 50.000 players ? hmm.. please, some1 keep the noobs from this site.

    And yes, i'm a fanboy of darkfall because i cant stand all these level system mmos today..

    And honestly i dont care so much if this game takes another 2 years untill open beta, atleast some1 took the skill based gameplay to surface, and in this gameplay you actually need to THINK and use your brain to be good at.

    you don't need to think anymore in this game then other games. In fact, considering that its a low budget game and thus unable to use the recourses to created inteligent AI, you will have less thinking to do.

  • METALDRAG0NMETALDRAG0N Member Posts: 1,680
    Originally posted by tralla


     


    yeah... roooight you worked for a mmo company ?
     
    then.. how can you get 10.000 to 50.000 players ? hmm.. please, some1 keep the noobs from this site.
    And yes, i'm a fanboy of darkfall because i cant stand all these level system mmos today..
    And honestly i dont care so much if this game takes another 2 years untill open beta, atleast some1 took the skill based gameplay to surface, and in this gameplay you actually need to THINK and use your brain to be good at.

    Not that im supporting darkfall or anything but eve has 34,000 similtanious players so 50,000 isant to far fetched assuming they can afford the right hardware of course.

    "Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god."
    -- Jean Rostand

  • Xris375Xris375 Member Posts: 1,005

    Originally posted by Scriar


     
    crap just typed a long response for why people think this game is vapor, and then lent on the back button -_-
     
    anyway to summarize, they need to sit down with a respectable gaming site and do a video interview showing all the features that they supposedly now have fully functional according to their latest dev journal, otherwise people will just continue speculating whether its vapor or not.
    also, the code may not still be there but they did start their concept stage which is an important part of development in 2001, until they say otherwise, ill just go by that ;p
     
    Hehe I hate it when that happens :)

    The thing is Aventurine doesn't care if you call it vaporware or not. They know what they have and say that their game will compete more than they ever could. Until they have something to show, they will not say much . Pretty stange I agree but it is their game after all.Some of the consepts may be there but Aventurine is about 3 times bigger than the original Razorwax so I would imagine preAventurine consepts have been reworked or updated a long time ago.

     

    ---
    And when we got more women on the team, it was like ‘No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there.’ ”
    John Smedley, SOE

  • vajurasvajuras Member Posts: 2,860

    Originally posted by Gameloading

    Originally posted by vajuras


     
    Originally posted by Gameloading


    What other low budget MMORPG promised heaven?



    Ah yes, Mourning, Dark & Light, Roma Victor.

     

    you forgot to add Dark Age of Camelot on that list. even here in an article by MMORPG they highly recognize Mythic for delivering a solid title on a limited budget.

    Budget is a huge factor of course but there's many, many opther things to consider. and this is coming from someone thats works at both small / big game studios. If a big budget was a sure thing we wouldnt see so many games flop left & right

    With the only exception that Dark Age of Camelot was released many, many years ago, when MMO's were quite new. MMO's were much less expensive. For example, look at DAOC's Graphics.The graphics were good for its time, compared to other MMO's of its time. Darkfall's graphics were 4 years old 4 years ago.

    I wonder why the general public has this misconception PC games have all of a sudden escalated. Sure- going from PS2 ->> PS3 is a huge freakin shock to us. But going from PC --> PC gimmie a break lol. You can subcontract out art to China/Korea. We're doing this on our next upcoming title. PC teams have been the same size for awhile now. Especially in the MMORPG market where you have hundreds of models onscreen. you have to keep the models pretty simple hence why people think WAR looks like WoW. Because graphically for MMOs you must target the low specs

  • atziluthatziluth Member UncommonPosts: 1,190
    Originally posted by vajuras


     
    Originally posted by Gameloading

    Originally posted by vajuras


     
    Originally posted by Gameloading


    What other low budget MMORPG promised heaven?



    Ah yes, Mourning, Dark & Light, Roma Victor.

     

    you forgot to add Dark Age of Camelot on that list. even here in an article by MMORPG they highly recognize Mythic for delivering a solid title on a limited budget.

    Budget is a huge factor of course but there's many, many opther things to consider. and this is coming from someone thats works at both small / big game studios. If a big budget was a sure thing we wouldnt see so many games flop left & right

    With the only exception that Dark Age of Camelot was released many, many years ago, when MMO's were quite new. MMO's were much less expensive. For example, look at DAOC's Graphics.The graphics were good for its time, compared to other MMO's of its time. Darkfall's graphics were 4 years old 4 years ago.

     

    I wonder why the general public has this misconception PC games have all of a sudden escalated. Sure- going from PS2 ->> PS3 is a huge freakin shock to us. But going from PC --> PC gimmie a break lol. You can subcontract out art to China/Korea. We're doing this on our next upcoming title. PC teams have been the same size for awhile now. Especially in the MMORPG market where you have hundreds of models onscreen. you have to keep the models pretty simple hence why people think WAR looks like WoW. Because graphically for MMOs you must target the low specs

    You really need to stop comparing console game development with PC game development. They are apples and oranges. PC is hands down the harder format to work with because of hardware and OS variations. I would love for you to quote the source where you claim MMO development teams are the same size from 5 - 8 years ago. Also I would love to know the source where you can claim MMOs in development outsource their art. No source = speculation at best = more BS rumor to stir the pot. Your expertise starts and stops with console... you should keep your claims contained in that context.

    -Atziluth-

    - Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.

  • vajurasvajuras Member Posts: 2,860

     

    Originally posted by atziluth

    Originally posted by vajuras


     
    Originally posted by Gameloading

    Originally posted by vajuras


     
    Originally posted by Gameloading


    What other low budget MMORPG promised heaven?



    Ah yes, Mourning, Dark & Light, Roma Victor.

     

    you forgot to add Dark Age of Camelot on that list. even here in an article by MMORPG they highly recognize Mythic for delivering a solid title on a limited budget.

    Budget is a huge factor of course but there's many, many opther things to consider. and this is coming from someone thats works at both small / big game studios. If a big budget was a sure thing we wouldnt see so many games flop left & right

    With the only exception that Dark Age of Camelot was released many, many years ago, when MMO's were quite new. MMO's were much less expensive. For example, look at DAOC's Graphics.The graphics were good for its time, compared to other MMO's of its time. Darkfall's graphics were 4 years old 4 years ago.

     

    I wonder why the general public has this misconception PC games have all of a sudden escalated. Sure- going from PS2 ->> PS3 is a huge freakin shock to us. But going from PC --> PC gimmie a break lol. You can subcontract out art to China/Korea. We're doing this on our next upcoming title. PC teams have been the same size for awhile now. Especially in the MMORPG market where you have hundreds of models onscreen. you have to keep the models pretty simple hence why people think WAR looks like WoW. Because graphically for MMOs you must target the low specs

    You really need to stop comparing console game development with PC game development. They are apples and oranges. PC is hands down the harder format to work with because of hardware and OS variations. I would love for you to quote the source where you claim MMO development teams are the same size from 5 - 8 years ago. Also I would love to know the source where you can claim MMOs in development outsource their art. No source = speculation at best = more BS rumor to stir the pot. Your expertise starts and stops with console... you should keep your claims contained in that context.



    funny do you know who I am or where I work you have no clue. My name is in the credits for multiple PC titles. funny post. I never ever said I didnt work on PC titles. 1 million shipped. In a very old post, I said our PC team at my "current" studio is a lot different from the console team due to the fact they rely on "patches" while on Console side that team worries about passing Microsoft/Sony certifications to ship. So crashes are pretty unacceptable for Console development thats what I was trying to say. ever since then you totally misread my posts and I assumed I was just "Console" developer which is pretty ridiculous I never said that. especially seeing as how I'm a programmer what do heck do you think I'm gonna code on at home for fun a PS3? lol.....

     

    Next, just go visit Sony Austin or other studios. Very small, small teams. MMO Developers being huge is a serious myth. not a requirement. bigger teams help sure. but sometimes just reducing team size and spending much longer developing a title is the way to go. Many major publishers are doing this now. I dont have to explain myself just go visit gamasutra sometime. You know, a Game Developer website

    And yes of course game studios often contract other studios for external work. That's how I go into the industry I did contract work. See post below --->

     

  • vajurasvajuras Member Posts: 2,860

    okay just casually looking at the back of my box for City of Villains-

     

    they contracted for Art:

    Nikitova, Liquid Development, and Santa Cruz games

     

    Like I just tried to state its common practice in the game industry to employ other studios for external work. Reduces game development costs by a ton. I worked at one developer where we practically had all of our maps contracted out

  • ZorvanZorvan Member CommonPosts: 8,912

    Originally posted by vajuras


     
    In a very old post, I said our PC team at my "current" studio is a lot different from the console team due to the fact they rely on "patches" while on Console side that team worries about passing Microsoft/Sony certifications to ship. So crashes are pretty unacceptable for Console development thats what I was trying to say.  
    This is a very important truth as far as the low quality of PC games being launched more and more frequently. PC gamers need to start holding developers to the same standards of quality and release as console game developers.

    The main difference between PC and console is the variety of different hardware to account for on the PC side. Therefore, a hardware conflict needing a fix, I can understand.

    It's the whole "we'll just add the rest of the content and bugfixes as we go along, after we release the game and grab some money" mentality of most PC game developers lately that needs to be dealt with. If a game conflicts with my dvd drive, I'll wait patiently for a fix. If I can't play the game because of unfinished quests, content not yet added, bugged programming, etc., then I have no patience or understanding for that developer, no matter how big or small their team is.

  • vajurasvajuras Member Posts: 2,860

    Originally posted by Gameloading

    Originally posted by tralla


     
    Originally posted by CaesarsGhost


    Beta coming in 2002 with support for up to 50,000 Simotanious players... right?
     
    I really want them to pull it through.  But I worked for a MMO company, and I watched the DFO hype raise and fall like a regular wave theory...
    You want it, you got it.  If you feel like holding your breathe, you should... we'd be free of your dribble every 4 months then.
    yeah... roooight you worked for a mmo company ?

     

    then.. how can you get 10.000 to 50.000 players ? hmm.. please, some1 keep the noobs from this site.

    And yes, i'm a fanboy of darkfall because i cant stand all these level system mmos today..

    And honestly i dont care so much if this game takes another 2 years untill open beta, atleast some1 took the skill based gameplay to surface, and in this gameplay you actually need to THINK and use your brain to be good at.

    you don't need to think anymore in this game then other games. In fact, considering that its a low budget game and thus unable to use the recourses to created inteligent AI, you will have less thinking to do.

    why do people think you need Intelligent AI at all in an MMORPG? RPG is not about player skill per se- its about your character. Why do you think coding AI for RPGs are hard? IT's a lot easier then coding AI for an FPS/RTS. I've shipped all 3 and I would say mob AI was the easiest AI I've ever seen.

    Surely you dont mean mob AI- like the AI for a little rat or something? Or even the AI for a Boss? Its called scripts. We train game designers to write those.

    Now single player RPG like Oblivion impress me. But MMORPG? I've never been impressed so far with anything I've seen

     

  • atziluthatziluth Member UncommonPosts: 1,190
    Originally posted by vajuras


     funny do you know who I am or where I work you have no clue. My name is in the credits for multiple PC titles. funny post. I never ever said I didnt work on PC titles. 1 million shipped. In a very old post, I said our PC team at my "current" studio is a lot different from the console team due to the fact they rely on "patches" while on Console side that team worries about passing Microsoft/Sony certifications to ship. So crashes are pretty unacceptable for Console development thats what I was trying to say. ever since then you totally misread my posts and I assumed I was just "Console" developer which is pretty ridiculous I never said that. especially seeing as how I'm a programmer what do heck do you think I'm gonna code on at home for fun a PS3? lol.....
    You are right... sifting through your posts (several hundred anyway) there was nothing definitive saying you only working in Console development. You do tend to talk more positively about console development then PC in numerous posts. You are right I don't know who you are so I cannot say one way or another what you do period. You can claim anything you like... I could claim to be a NASA scientist and without a name there is nothing you can say to disprove me. For the record I take you at your word that you work in the industry. From checking out several development sites and reading articles from veteran developers they seem to feel both PC and Console are about equal in difficulty. I can give you the sources if you would like. For the time you spend in development one thing I have noticed is you seem to loath PC development. In fact most of your posts that deal with your field belittle PC development as an almost childish pastime compared to console. Is it any wonder I assumed you to be console exclusively?
    Next, just go visit Sony Austin or other studios. Very small, small teams. MMO Developers being huge is a serious myth. not a requirement. bigger teams help sure. but sometimes just reducing team size and spending much longer developing a title is the way to go. Many major publishers are doing this now. I dont have to explain myself just go visit gamasutra sometime. You know, a Game Developer website.
    I guess we have to define small. Indie game developers are small. I expect DF to be a small team. More corporate companies like Blizzard, SOE, and Mythic would tend to be larger. What do you define as a "small" team? Is it 5 people, 10 people, 25 people? Are you including managers, artists, programmers, QA, etc... or just the programmers? Typical indie teams are usually around 10 people. Is that a good gauge for a "small" team?
    And yes of course game studios often contract other studios for external work. That's how I go into the industry I did contract work. See post below --->
    Lets try for a company that does not pump out an MMO every year shall we? I know you have a WoW box and an EQII box laying around... they got credits to external artists as well? 

     

    -Atziluth-

    - Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.

  • QuestionableQuestionable Member Posts: 653

    Originally posted by Gameloading


    you don't need to think anymore in this game then other games. In fact, considering that its a low budget game and thus unable to use the recourses to created inteligent AI, you will have less thinking to do.

    Tell me where does this information that they have a low budget come from? Show me the transactions that you have to have to make such a statement.

  • whitedelightwhitedelight Member Posts: 1,544
    Originally posted by Questionable


     
    Originally posted by Gameloading


    you don't need to think anymore in this game then other games. In fact, considering that its a low budget game and thus unable to use the recourses to created inteligent AI, you will have less thinking to do.

     

    Tell me where does this information that they have a low budget come from? Show me the transactions that you have to have to make such a statement.

    Also, who is honestly looking to play DarkFall for the mob AI? I believe the one who posted about making you think was referring to player versus player combat. Using the correct skills, knowing when to try to cast, knowing when to try to melee, knowing when to pull out a bow and shoot. Knowing when to run, knowing when you are outnumbered eight to one, or when you can just consider them more targets to hit when it is two to one or three to one. These require thought. The fact that there is no lock on targeting also forces you to think. I think this is a plus. I haven't seen anybody who has been here for some time ever claim they were going to play DarkFall for the amazing NPC AI.

    image

  • QuestionableQuestionable Member Posts: 653

    Originally posted by whitedelight

    Originally posted by Questionable


     
    Originally posted by Gameloading


    you don't need to think anymore in this game then other games. In fact, considering that its a low budget game and thus unable to use the recourses to created inteligent AI, you will have less thinking to do.

     

    Tell me where does this information that they have a low budget come from? Show me the transactions that you have to have to make such a statement.

    Also, who is honestly looking to play DarkFall for the mob AI? I believe the one who posted about making you think was referring to player versus player combat. Using the correct skills, knowing when to try to cast, knowing when to try to melee, knowing when to pull out a bow and shoot. Knowing when to run, knowing when you are outnumbered eight to one, or when you can just consider them more targets to hit when it is two to one or three to one. These require thought. The fact that there is no lock on targeting also forces you to think. I think this is a plus. I haven't seen anybody who has been here for some time ever claim they were going to play DarkFall for the amazing NPC AI.

    If the AI is as good as they say it is than it would be great teamwork training trying to take down a dragon. Also some people might just like to take on giants or other such creatures for bragging rights.

    Still he has no evidence saying that this is a low budget game but i think i saw one guy say he wants to try out DF for the AI once.

     

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