If there's nothing to lose, what's the point in winning?
How do you Win any MMO.
you beat the big boss and complete the quest. congrats you "won" (pick most any mmo)
You loot and pillage your opponents capital city. congrats you "won" (WAR)
You capture x number of your opponents flags. congrats you "won" (WoW)
deafeat your opponents in open combat. congrats you "won" (Daoc, guildwars...ect)
does the game stop because you "won" a victory? Nope. or at least it doesn't have to.
I think you win by having fun. So if having fun is winning, it is up to the individual. Which is why I think having a harsh death penalty is a bad idea. It is just not fun for me. I am the guy that plays Madden on easiest level and wins 150-0. Stupid? Maybe, but it is fun for me.
If there's nothing to lose, what's the point in winning?
How do you Win any MMO.
you beat the big boss and complete the quest. congrats you "won" (pick most any mmo)
You loot and pillage your opponents capital city. congrats you "won" (WAR)
You capture x number of your opponents flags. congrats you "won" (WoW)
deafeat your opponents in open combat. congrats you "won" (Daoc, guildwars...ect)
does the game stop because you "won" a victory? Nope. or at least it doesn't have to.
I think you win by having fun. So if having fun is winning, it is up to the individual. Which is why I think having a harsh death penalty is a bad idea. It is just not fun for me. I am the guy that plays Madden on easiest level and wins 150-0. Stupid? Maybe, but it is fun for me.
It's amazing how different people can be. I am the total opposite. I play strategy games like CIV4 on the hardest settings possible, losing 9 out of 10 trys, being frustrated as hell when I do, but enjoying the process and the prospects of winning. It's all about the journey for me.
As long as developers cater to all playertypes, everyone should be happy. Unfortunately I can't find a quality hardcore MMOG these days like early EQ1 was.
if i beat you playin chess do you automatically start sucking and forget how to play? so why does it make sense that when you die in a mmo that you should get weaker? if we are playing laser tag and my team wins would it make sense to give your team weaker guns? no it wouldnt.
i dont know about you guys but i dont like doin quests over and over just to get my guy to max lvl to do the real fun stuff. loosin xp just postpones the fun stuff from you. i dont like that. now if there is no fun stuff at max lvl then why you playin that game?
now for the no risk no reward, cant loose whats to win stuff. you already paid for the game and had to wait for it to install so your a looser at the beginning. playing it is the reward, winning, part because you are having fun with it.
for the get the noobs out of the game thing. no matter what you do or where you do it there will be someone to mess it up.theres people who want to do somthing and others to mess it up its life get over it.
if i beat you playin chess do you automatically start sucking and forget how to play? so why does it make sense that when you die in a mmo that you should get weaker? if we are playing laser tag and my team wins would it make sense to give your team weaker guns? no it wouldnt. Terrable examples why not try mine. If i ran you through with a sword then cut off your head what ahppens to you? i dont know about you guys but i dont like doin quests over and over just to get my guy to max lvl to do the real fun stuff. Thats called A.D.D loosin xp just postpones the fun stuff from you. i dont like that. now if there is no fun stuff at max lvl then why you playin that game? now for the no risk no reward, cant loose whats to win stuff. you already paid for the game and had to wait for it to install so your a looser at the beginning. playing it is the reward, winning, part because you are having fun with it. for the get the noobs out of the game thing. no matter what you do or where you do it there will be someone to mess it up.theres people who want to do somthing and others to mess it up its life get over it.
Whats the point of PvP or PvE if there isant some sort of Risk? And no a crappy WoW penalty of finding your body isant a penalty.
Its pretty obvious that all you ahve palyed is WoW no wonder you made such a terrable post.
Originally posted by ASmith84 if i beat you playin chess do you automatically start sucking and forget how to play? so why does it make sense that when you die in a mmo that you should get weaker? if we are playing laser tag and my team wins would it make sense to give your team weaker guns? no it wouldnt.
If you lose a game of chess, the game is over and you have to start from scratch the next time you play. Is that really the kind of death penalty you want in an MMO? A better analogy to MMO death would be the loss of a piece in a game of chess - just a setback, not the end of the game.
Of course, in chess, that disadvantage lasts for the duration of the game, and can't simply be gained back by paying off experience debt. No matter how you look at it, most MMORPGs have a much more lenient death penalty than chess.
MMOs have death penalties because you're not supposed to die. Dying is bad.
I don't think running from the GY to your body is 5 minutes... maybe 2, even the long run back to MC/BWL didn't take 5 mins unless you went to the wrong place (happened a few times, I was use to MC entrance when we did BWL heh). For me, money was very tight so I'd rather die and loose xp which I can get back in no time and not spend like 2g a death.... stupid epics .
Any way, I like death penalty (risk factor). I think FFXI had pretty steep penalties, but that wasn't too bad if you have a good group or know a good spot.
I hope MMORPGs keep having some kind of penalty. When it gets to the point of no penalty... yeah.... It wont happen I'm sure, people will always want some kind of effect of death that tacts on some more time for leveling.
It keeps people from being complete idiots in groups. "Whoops lol sorry my bad for the wipe. Everyone walk back" Thats lame... I miss UO style death. Frantically messaging my guild to open the runebook in my house for treasure location xyz "my corpse has been bones for 8 minutes! hurry!" Hehe. And sometimes you dont get it back and you lose whatever you had on you. so what? This kind of risk encourages better gameplay i think.
This kind of gameplay only encourages never taking risks. It deters many from actually taking on a real challenge for fear of dieing and losing gear and or Xp. Also systems set up like this only encourage seasoned veterans to skirt the system either by keeping loot in the bank or bags, carrying an alternate set of average gear. Play smarter ? Perhaps but I dont see it, every game Ive played like that still has the same amount of noobs as any other game.
If there's nothing to lose, what's the point in winning?
How do you Win any MMO.
you beat the big boss and complete the quest. congrats you "won" (pick most any mmo)
You loot and pillage your opponents capital city. congrats you "won" (WAR)
You capture x number of your opponents flags. congrats you "won" (WoW)
deafeat your opponents in open combat. congrats you "won" (Daoc, guildwars...ect)
does the game stop because you "won" a victory? Nope. or at least it doesn't have to.
You fail to get the point tbh, "winning" isn't winning the GAME, it's 'winning' the situation.
If you're in a tight spot in an MMO and things don't look good, having a (severe) death penalty makes the situation as such more believeable, it creates an emotion. You lost and you paid for that loss, as you now have an incentive NOT to die you learn from your mistakes and grow/evolve, making sure it won't happen again. Similarly if you're in a bad spot and still you somehow survive it (due to your earlier experience, as there's an incentive to learn) you feel victorious, again an emotion.
Death penalties make people think about their actions and strategies, ultimately you end up with better (team)players because they HAVE to. So; if you want to play an MMO with a lot of teamwork, where teamwork is required/favoured, where you'll meet good quality players, play the MMO with the most severe death penalty because Darwinism will take care of the people who can't play well and who can't work in a team. They will simply leave the game and when asked why they left they'll lie saying the game sucks blahblahblah, it doesn't suck, it's just that that game required effort, teamwork, thought and preparation which that person wasn't willing/able to do.
This is why you have alliances of over 10k people in EVE, this is why there's 1 ship in EVE called a Titan which will take a big alliance a LONG time of work, effort, minerals and all that to build it, AND IT GETS BUILD because of TEAMWORK, because you HAVE to have teamwork there, since if you don't you die. And since dieing in EVE is painful/costly people learn to work together. It's a rather simple yet powerful concept, sadly most people just want things easy and then start shouting about the quality of players they meet in their MMO's.
So again, what is the point in fighting a battle/mob/situation if there's no repercussion to losing?
If there's nothing to lose, what's the point in winning?
How do you Win any MMO.
you beat the big boss and complete the quest. congrats you "won" (pick most any mmo)
You loot and pillage your opponents capital city. congrats you "won" (WAR)
You capture x number of your opponents flags. congrats you "won" (WoW)
deafeat your opponents in open combat. congrats you "won" (Daoc, guildwars...ect)
does the game stop because you "won" a victory? Nope. or at least it doesn't have to.
You fail to get the point tbh, "winning" isn't winning the GAME, it's 'winning' the situation.
If you're in a tight spot in an MMO and things don't look good, having a (severe) death penalty makes the situation as such more believeable, it creates an emotion. You lost and you paid for that loss, as you now have an incentive NOT to die you learn from your mistakes and grow/evolve, making sure it won't happen again. Similarly if you're in a bad spot and still you somehow survive it (due to your earlier experience, as there's an incentive to learn) you feel victorious, again an emotion.
Death penalties make people think about their actions and strategies, utlimately you end up with better (team)players because they HAVE to. So; if you want to play an MMO with a lot of teamwork, where teamwork is required/favoured, play the MMO with the most severe death penalty because Darwinism will take care of the people who can't play well and who can't work in a team. They will simply leave the game and when asked why they left they'll lie saying the game sucks blahblahblah, it doesn't suck, it's just that that game required effort, teamwork, thought and preparation which that person wasn't willing/able to do.
This is why you have alliances of over 10k people in EVE, this is why there's 1 ship in EVE called a Titan which will take a big alliance a LONG time of work, effort, minerals and all that to build it, AND IT GETS BUILD because of TEAMWORK, because you HAVE to have teamwork there, since if you don't you die. And since dieing in EVE is painful/costly people learn to work together. It's a rather simple yet powerful concept, sadly most people just want things easy and then start shouting about the quality of players they meet in their MMO's.
So again, what is the point in fighting a battle/mob/situation if there's no repercussion to losing?
I agree teamwork is very good at making a successfull team. [I play eve too BTW].
if i beat you playin chess do you automatically start sucking and forget how to play? so why does it make sense that when you die in a mmo that you should get weaker? if we are playing laser tag and my team wins would it make sense to give your team weaker guns? no it wouldnt. Terrable examples why not try mine. If i ran you through with a sword then cut off your head what ahppens to you? i dont know about you guys but i dont like doin quests over and over just to get my guy to max lvl to do the real fun stuff. Thats called A.D.D loosin xp just postpones the fun stuff from you. i dont like that. now if there is no fun stuff at max lvl then why you playin that game? now for the no risk no reward, cant loose whats to win stuff. you already paid for the game and had to wait for it to install so your a looser at the beginning. playing it is the reward, winning, part because you are having fun with it. for the get the noobs out of the game thing. no matter what you do or where you do it there will be someone to mess it up.theres people who want to do somthing and others to mess it up its life get over it.
Whats the point of PvP or PvE if there isant some sort of Risk? And no a crappy WoW penalty of finding your body isant a penalty.
Its pretty obvious that all you ahve palyed is WoW no wonder you made such a terrable post.
Nice to see an old topic on the forums of death penalties. I don't think I really understood death penalties or why they were necessary. (and this is coming from someone that played Everquest) I'm thinking its more of a developers precaution put on the character rather than something meant to enhance a players experience of the game, - developers precaution in that it stopped people exploring content willynilly by having zero consequence for dieing and that. Or possibly it was to add some element of attachment to the character by feeling affected if you died and gained that loss. I don't know, but I think most people who played Everquest didn't want that loss and were thankful a 96% rez was around every corner.
Strangely, although Everquest's death penalty was bad I disliked AC2 and EQ2's more: AC2's was a vitae system, you died and I think you had to get more and more xp just to level, and EQ2's was the same or similar. I can recall AC2's and found it an absolutely horrid system to completely quash your desire to exp and level up with debt. And EQ2's debt system I think you even were punished for being in a crap group -going away with shared xp debt.( or something that was a green bar that you had to pay off. Think they had the sense to finally remove that) The best kind of death system I think and is one I've said before and said by a few others is where you gain bonuses for not dieing. 1. - You gain incentive not to die and 2. -you gain a loss upon dieing of those bonuses. Much more preferential system from my perspective.
If there's nothing to lose, what's the point in winning?
How do you Win any MMO.
you beat the big boss and complete the quest. congrats you "won" (pick most any mmo)
You loot and pillage your opponents capital city. congrats you "won" (WAR)
You capture x number of your opponents flags. congrats you "won" (WoW)
deafeat your opponents in open combat. congrats you "won" (Daoc, guildwars...ect)
does the game stop because you "won" a victory? Nope. or at least it doesn't have to.
You fail to get the point tbh, "winning" isn't winning the GAME, it's 'winning' the situation.
If you're in a tight spot in an MMO and things don't look good, having a (severe) death penalty makes the situation as such more believeable, it creates an emotion. You lost and you paid for that loss, as you now have an incentive NOT to die you learn from your mistakes and grow/evolve, making sure it won't happen again. Similarly if you're in a bad spot and still you somehow survive it (due to your earlier experience, as there's an incentive to learn) you feel victorious, again an emotion.
Death penalties make people think about their actions and strategies, ultimately you end up with better (team)players because they HAVE to. So; if you want to play an MMO with a lot of teamwork, where teamwork is required/favoured, where you'll meet good quality players, play the MMO with the most severe death penalty because Darwinism will take care of the people who can't play well and who can't work in a team. They will simply leave the game and when asked why they left they'll lie saying the game sucks blahblahblah, it doesn't suck, it's just that that game required effort, teamwork, thought and preparation which that person wasn't willing/able to do.
This is why you have alliances of over 10k people in EVE, this is why there's 1 ship in EVE called a Titan which will take a big alliance a LONG time of work, effort, minerals and all that to build it, AND IT GETS BUILD because of TEAMWORK, because you HAVE to have teamwork there, since if you don't you die. And since dieing in EVE is painful/costly people learn to work together. It's a rather simple yet powerful concept, sadly most people just want things easy and then start shouting about the quality of players they meet in their MMO's.
So again, what is the point in fighting a battle/mob/situation if there's no repercussion to losing?
I think there are better more immersive and bigger time sink methods to dealing with penalizing death then losing a % of your experience or the dreaded exp debt. I think WoW helps redefine how we think of death by having to run back to your body. In WoW to gain back that 1% would only take a minute or 2; but to have to run back to your body from half way across the map could take 5.
This can probably be expanded even further. My idea. Land of the dead. You have to fight your way back to the land of the living, and beat some bosses that are scaled to your level. Then make a couple variations so people don't notice they just wasted 2 hours and killed 300 monsters for nothing. Ohh Ohh, and it can be made even better by taking away some stuff that would make fighting your way to life funner then the actual game; like Spiritual Powers.
if i beat you playin chess do you automatically start sucking and forget how to play? so why does it make sense that when you die in a mmo that you should get weaker? if we are playing laser tag and my team wins would it make sense to give your team weaker guns? no it wouldnt. Terrable examples why not try mine. If i ran you through with a sword then cut off your head what ahppens to you? i dont know about you guys but i dont like doin quests over and over just to get my guy to max lvl to do the real fun stuff. Thats called A.D.D loosin xp just postpones the fun stuff from you. i dont like that. now if there is no fun stuff at max lvl then why you playin that game? now for the no risk no reward, cant loose whats to win stuff. you already paid for the game and had to wait for it to install so your a looser at the beginning. playing it is the reward, winning, part because you are having fun with it. for the get the noobs out of the game thing. no matter what you do or where you do it there will be someone to mess it up.theres people who want to do somthing and others to mess it up its life get over it.
Whats the point of PvP or PvE if there isant some sort of Risk? And no a crappy WoW penalty of finding your body isant a penalty.
Its pretty obvious that all you ahve palyed is WoW no wonder you made such a terrable post.
Once again, the point is to have fun. It is up to you what is fun and what is not.
If there's nothing to lose, what's the point in winning?
How do you Win any MMO.
you beat the big boss and complete the quest. congrats you "won" (pick most any mmo)
You loot and pillage your opponents capital city. congrats you "won" (WAR)
You capture x number of your opponents flags. congrats you "won" (WoW)
deafeat your opponents in open combat. congrats you "won" (Daoc, guildwars...ect)
does the game stop because you "won" a victory? Nope. or at least it doesn't have to.
You fail to get the point tbh, "winning" isn't winning the GAME, it's 'winning' the situation.
If you're in a tight spot in an MMO and things don't look good, having a (severe) death penalty makes the situation as such more believeable, it creates an emotion. You lost and you paid for that loss, as you now have an incentive NOT to die you learn from your mistakes and grow/evolve, making sure it won't happen again. Similarly if you're in a bad spot and still you somehow survive it (due to your earlier experience, as there's an incentive to learn) you feel victorious, again an emotion.
Death penalties make people think about their actions and strategies, ultimately you end up with better (team)players because they HAVE to. So; if you want to play an MMO with a lot of teamwork, where teamwork is required/favoured, where you'll meet good quality players, play the MMO with the most severe death penalty because Darwinism will take care of the people who can't play well and who can't work in a team. They will simply leave the game and when asked why they left they'll lie saying the game sucks blahblahblah, it doesn't suck, it's just that that game required effort, teamwork, thought and preparation which that person wasn't willing/able to do.
This is why you have alliances of over 10k people in EVE, this is why there's 1 ship in EVE called a Titan which will take a big alliance a LONG time of work, effort, minerals and all that to build it, AND IT GETS BUILD because of TEAMWORK, because you HAVE to have teamwork there, since if you don't you die. And since dieing in EVE is painful/costly people learn to work together. It's a rather simple yet powerful concept, sadly most people just want things easy and then start shouting about the quality of players they meet in their MMO's.
So again, what is the point in fighting a battle/mob/situation if there's no repercussion to losing?
lol
I agree. thats what i was trying to tell Itzit.
I played EVE for about 5 months. Not long, but long enough to know the death penalty was to harsh for me. I lost a battleship and I lost sleep over it. That is not fun for me. I am not playing games to feel bad or lose sleep over.
If there's nothing to lose, what's the point in winning?
How do you Win any MMO.
you beat the big boss and complete the quest. congrats you "won" (pick most any mmo)
You loot and pillage your opponents capital city. congrats you "won" (WAR)
You capture x number of your opponents flags. congrats you "won" (WoW)
deafeat your opponents in open combat. congrats you "won" (Daoc, guildwars...ect)
does the game stop because you "won" a victory? Nope. or at least it doesn't have to.
You fail to get the point tbh, "winning" isn't winning the GAME, it's 'winning' the situation.
If you're in a tight spot in an MMO and things don't look good, having a (severe) death penalty makes the situation as such more believeable, it creates an emotion. You lost and you paid for that loss, as you now have an incentive NOT to die you learn from your mistakes and grow/evolve, making sure it won't happen again. Similarly if you're in a bad spot and still you somehow survive it (due to your earlier experience, as there's an incentive to learn) you feel victorious, again an emotion.
Death penalties make people think about their actions and strategies, ultimately you end up with better (team)players because they HAVE to. So; if you want to play an MMO with a lot of teamwork, where teamwork is required/favoured, where you'll meet good quality players, play the MMO with the most severe death penalty because Darwinism will take care of the people who can't play well and who can't work in a team. They will simply leave the game and when asked why they left they'll lie saying the game sucks blahblahblah, it doesn't suck, it's just that that game required effort, teamwork, thought and preparation which that person wasn't willing/able to do.
This is why you have alliances of over 10k people in EVE, this is why there's 1 ship in EVE called a Titan which will take a big alliance a LONG time of work, effort, minerals and all that to build it, AND IT GETS BUILD because of TEAMWORK, because you HAVE to have teamwork there, since if you don't you die. And since dieing in EVE is painful/costly people learn to work together. It's a rather simple yet powerful concept, sadly most people just want things easy and then start shouting about the quality of players they meet in their MMO's.
So again, what is the point in fighting a battle/mob/situation if there's no repercussion to losing?
lol
I agree. thats what i was trying to tell Itzit.
I played EVE for about 5 months. Not long, but long enough to know the death penalty was to harsh for me. I lost a battleship and I lost sleep over it. That is not fun for me. I am not playing games to feel bad or lose sleep over.
But didn't the chance of losing your ship make the environment more 'real'? didn't you feel accomplishment when you flew somewhere or attacked something and you DIDN'T lose your ship? Didn't you have the drive to learn from that experience and better yourself from it, and if you did, didn't that as well feel like an accomplishment? Didn't all of a sudden the whole universe actually feel like it's BIG, because it takes effort to get somewhere? If there's no emotional attachment, what keeps you playing/entertained for so long?
Also, didn't you learn from your loss that you should never fly something you can't afford to lose? Wasn't this explained to you? didn't you read up on it? didn't you figure out the dangers you might run into while doing what you were doing? weren't you prepared? Were you alone? In other words; were you treating the game like an FPS?
In an MMORPG I want to 'feel' the wrold that's being created, I want to be able to make it as 'real' as possible, and all of the things that make things more easy in an MMO (no death penalty, fast/insta travel and more things everyone wants to have to make the game take less effort) is actually a LOSS to the game environment. If people can insta travel you effectively shrink the gameworld, you deprive them from the feeling of being in that world, you deprive them of the option to interact with others while traveling and all that. Same with no deathpenalties, having none or very soft ones actually tear up the very IDEA of an MMORPG.
i thought this post would be different and people could discuss other things other than conan is the best, warhammer will be better, wow is goin or not goin down and so on. we all know the answers to this anyway, conan will be the best, warhammer is wow with more on pvp, and time will eventually kill wow but we never know when this is. (dont take this last sentence seriously its just for fun)
i only compare everything to wow because wow is the most popular mmo and most people have played it if they like mmos and is familiar with it more than other games. but if you want to know here is my list of games i have played: ff11, gw, coh, cov, eve, swg, tmo, wow, rappelz, silkroad, auto assault, dungeon runners, and a few others i cant remember right now.
i thought up a solution. listen to this. when someone beats the hell out of you you get weak right? but this weakness isnt forevor it just lasts for awhile then your all better. you dont do anything you just get better you dont go out and try to fight people to get better it just happens. so why not have the death penalty like this? like the matrix online you get weaken until it wears off. this is probably the only good thing the matrix did was make a good dp. whats wrong with this? why not just have it temporarly and not permanent?
what is wrong with the ghost thing? that made me not want to die it was annoying finding the body.
why do people want a death penalty? what is so great about loosin xp? it just makes you play the game longerwhich makes you pay more. why do people like this? i dont understand this. whats wrong with no death penalty? why cant we just enjoy a game with no negative outcome? even if you loose its ok just get back in there and try harder. what is wrong with this? the best death penalty if you consider it one is the wow ghost walk. i think that was pretty cool. i didnt think the fixin armor thing was necessary. findin your body was punishment enough. sometimes it takes like 5 minutes to find it. then you have to wait till the enemies were gone to res. i like that its unique and original. plus its not too serious like loosin xp. whats wrong with this?
It makes your success meaningfull. It makes you feel you just accomplish something.
However, the death penalty should be adapted to the players. This is rather harsh to adapt, as what is fine for a player is cruel and unfair for another, or laughable and easy for another.
This is why you must have more then 1 death penalty, First, you need a death penalty that is light and work with casuals. This is the most important penalty you need. IMO, CoV is perfect with it debt-system. You never remove anything from a player, but to put a debt on his xp, the casual find this heavy of consequences and try to avoid it. It also give him a sense of accomplishment.
So, debt-light is working with casuals. This is 90% of the issue.
But...you need a death system that won't affect the casuals from now on, and that will scare players such as me. You want me to be afraid of dying. If losing XP is not working (while you also remove what you give to a player, this is double bad, not working and removing, you never want to remove stuff a player acquires), then the debt-penalty is certainly not going to work. Personnally I always think that having X lives per month and making sure the casuals won't run out of lives (can't lose more then 1 life per X time unless you play already Y amount of time)...I would be afraid to be unable to play my character. So having an amount of lives per month and been unable to play for a week or two, that would scare the hell outta me...and since you don't remove my hard-earned rewards, only my ability to play this character...you win everywhere.
Anyway, the death penalty give an accomplishment feeling when you succeed despite it. However, the death penalty has to be adjusted so you don't overdo do it, while you scare everyone...thereby you need multiples systems, and the hardest one shouldn't affect the casuals at all.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Todays linear, hold you're hand, candy land gameplay is easy enough already.
At it's core death penalties are punishment for stupidity & lack of planning/ strategy. You wanna go all Leroy Jenkins into a room full of mobs fine but it's gonna cost you and or you're group / raid valuable playing time.
Granted there are exceptions like really difficult raid encounters but even those more often or not can be overcome with proper execution.How many times after dying have you said to yourself "Damn that was stupid I should have known better."
We all have.
In the anonymous, virtual MMO world death penalties are the single best way of hold one accountable to a group.They also serve as a gage to playing ability or how well someones paying attention. If someones constantly dying or causing group /raid wipes their either not too bright or their ability is suspect.
It makes the game more serious and hard-core. By doing so this weeds out the really young population that can sometimes hurt the authenticity of the game. Most of all, it just makes the game more fun!
Don't let the majority of the people posting here, the majority of the people are similar to yourself. Just are so tired of argueing against the hardcore they steer clear of these topics.
For me the game itself should be hard to play, not just have penalties upon death to make the game "seem" harder. A good mmo to me would make it so EVERY SINGLE MOB AND ENEMY could kill you, while you were still around that ones strength, if you didn't play well enough or luck was not in your favor, it would be all over. EVERY SINGLE TIME.
A harsh death penalty does nothing but make you spend LESS time playing the game, and MORE time getting ready to play. If you have to spend 5 hours getting ready to play the game every time i die, then thats 5 hours i could have spent in a non dp game actually playing through content. Even a hour of work upon a death is more then what i want. 5-10 minutes is the maximum time i'll spend in any game waiting as a result of a death. Since if i had to spend a hour of my time gaming regearing after a death... thats a hour i'd be able to spend playing anything else and having fun.
I play games to have fun, and if i'm not having fun i'm not gonna play anymore.
Comments
you beat the big boss and complete the quest. congrats you "won" (pick most any mmo)
You loot and pillage your opponents capital city. congrats you "won" (WAR)
You capture x number of your opponents flags. congrats you "won" (WoW)
deafeat your opponents in open combat. congrats you "won" (Daoc, guildwars...ect)
does the game stop because you "won" a victory? Nope. or at least it doesn't have to.
I think you win by having fun. So if having fun is winning, it is up to the individual. Which is why I think having a harsh death penalty is a bad idea. It is just not fun for me. I am the guy that plays Madden on easiest level and wins 150-0. Stupid? Maybe, but it is fun for me.you beat the big boss and complete the quest. congrats you "won" (pick most any mmo)
You loot and pillage your opponents capital city. congrats you "won" (WAR)
You capture x number of your opponents flags. congrats you "won" (WoW)
deafeat your opponents in open combat. congrats you "won" (Daoc, guildwars...ect)
does the game stop because you "won" a victory? Nope. or at least it doesn't have to.
I think you win by having fun. So if having fun is winning, it is up to the individual. Which is why I think having a harsh death penalty is a bad idea. It is just not fun for me. I am the guy that plays Madden on easiest level and wins 150-0. Stupid? Maybe, but it is fun for me.It's amazing how different people can be. I am the total opposite. I play strategy games like CIV4 on the hardest settings possible, losing 9 out of 10 trys, being frustrated as hell when I do, but enjoying the process and the prospects of winning. It's all about the journey for me.
As long as developers cater to all playertypes, everyone should be happy. Unfortunately I can't find a quality hardcore MMOG these days like early EQ1 was.
if i beat you playin chess do you automatically start sucking and forget how to play? so why does it make sense that when you die in a mmo that you should get weaker? if we are playing laser tag and my team wins would it make sense to give your team weaker guns? no it wouldnt.
i dont know about you guys but i dont like doin quests over and over just to get my guy to max lvl to do the real fun stuff. loosin xp just postpones the fun stuff from you. i dont like that. now if there is no fun stuff at max lvl then why you playin that game?
now for the no risk no reward, cant loose whats to win stuff. you already paid for the game and had to wait for it to install so your a looser at the beginning. playing it is the reward, winning, part because you are having fun with it.
for the get the noobs out of the game thing. no matter what you do or where you do it there will be someone to mess it up.theres people who want to do somthing and others to mess it up its life get over it.
Whats the point of PvP or PvE if there isant some sort of Risk? And no a crappy WoW penalty of finding your body isant a penalty.
Its pretty obvious that all you ahve palyed is WoW no wonder you made such a terrable post.
Of course, in chess, that disadvantage lasts for the duration of the game, and can't simply be gained back by paying off experience debt. No matter how you look at it, most MMORPGs have a much more lenient death penalty than chess.
MMOs have death penalties because you're not supposed to die. Dying is bad.
Any way, I like death penalty (risk factor). I think FFXI had pretty steep penalties, but that wasn't too bad if you have a good group or know a good spot.
I hope MMORPGs keep having some kind of penalty. When it gets to the point of no penalty... yeah.... It wont happen I'm sure, people will always want some kind of effect of death that tacts on some more time for leveling.
you beat the big boss and complete the quest. congrats you "won" (pick most any mmo)
You loot and pillage your opponents capital city. congrats you "won" (WAR)
You capture x number of your opponents flags. congrats you "won" (WoW)
deafeat your opponents in open combat. congrats you "won" (Daoc, guildwars...ect)
does the game stop because you "won" a victory? Nope. or at least it doesn't have to.
You fail to get the point tbh, "winning" isn't winning the GAME, it's 'winning' the situation.
If you're in a tight spot in an MMO and things don't look good, having a (severe) death penalty makes the situation as such more believeable, it creates an emotion. You lost and you paid for that loss, as you now have an incentive NOT to die you learn from your mistakes and grow/evolve, making sure it won't happen again. Similarly if you're in a bad spot and still you somehow survive it (due to your earlier experience, as there's an incentive to learn) you feel victorious, again an emotion.
Death penalties make people think about their actions and strategies, ultimately you end up with better (team)players because they HAVE to. So; if you want to play an MMO with a lot of teamwork, where teamwork is required/favoured, where you'll meet good quality players, play the MMO with the most severe death penalty because Darwinism will take care of the people who can't play well and who can't work in a team. They will simply leave the game and when asked why they left they'll lie saying the game sucks blahblahblah, it doesn't suck, it's just that that game required effort, teamwork, thought and preparation which that person wasn't willing/able to do.
This is why you have alliances of over 10k people in EVE, this is why there's 1 ship in EVE called a Titan which will take a big alliance a LONG time of work, effort, minerals and all that to build it, AND IT GETS BUILD because of TEAMWORK, because you HAVE to have teamwork there, since if you don't you die. And since dieing in EVE is painful/costly people learn to work together. It's a rather simple yet powerful concept, sadly most people just want things easy and then start shouting about the quality of players they meet in their MMO's.
So again, what is the point in fighting a battle/mob/situation if there's no repercussion to losing?
you beat the big boss and complete the quest. congrats you "won" (pick most any mmo)
You loot and pillage your opponents capital city. congrats you "won" (WAR)
You capture x number of your opponents flags. congrats you "won" (WoW)
deafeat your opponents in open combat. congrats you "won" (Daoc, guildwars...ect)
does the game stop because you "won" a victory? Nope. or at least it doesn't have to.
You fail to get the point tbh, "winning" isn't winning the GAME, it's 'winning' the situation.
If you're in a tight spot in an MMO and things don't look good, having a (severe) death penalty makes the situation as such more believeable, it creates an emotion. You lost and you paid for that loss, as you now have an incentive NOT to die you learn from your mistakes and grow/evolve, making sure it won't happen again. Similarly if you're in a bad spot and still you somehow survive it (due to your earlier experience, as there's an incentive to learn) you feel victorious, again an emotion.
Death penalties make people think about their actions and strategies, utlimately you end up with better (team)players because they HAVE to. So; if you want to play an MMO with a lot of teamwork, where teamwork is required/favoured, play the MMO with the most severe death penalty because Darwinism will take care of the people who can't play well and who can't work in a team. They will simply leave the game and when asked why they left they'll lie saying the game sucks blahblahblah, it doesn't suck, it's just that that game required effort, teamwork, thought and preparation which that person wasn't willing/able to do.
This is why you have alliances of over 10k people in EVE, this is why there's 1 ship in EVE called a Titan which will take a big alliance a LONG time of work, effort, minerals and all that to build it, AND IT GETS BUILD because of TEAMWORK, because you HAVE to have teamwork there, since if you don't you die. And since dieing in EVE is painful/costly people learn to work together. It's a rather simple yet powerful concept, sadly most people just want things easy and then start shouting about the quality of players they meet in their MMO's.
So again, what is the point in fighting a battle/mob/situation if there's no repercussion to losing?
I agree teamwork is very good at making a successfull team. [I play eve too BTW].Whats the point of PvP or PvE if there isant some sort of Risk? And no a crappy WoW penalty of finding your body isant a penalty.
Its pretty obvious that all you ahve palyed is WoW no wonder you made such a terrable post.
We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Nice to see an old topic on the forums of death penalties. I don't think I really understood death penalties or why they were necessary. (and this is coming from someone that played Everquest) I'm thinking its more of a developers precaution put on the character rather than something meant to enhance a players experience of the game, - developers precaution in that it stopped people exploring content willynilly by having zero consequence for dieing and that. Or possibly it was to add some element of attachment to the character by feeling affected if you died and gained that loss. I don't know, but I think most people who played Everquest didn't want that loss and were thankful a 96% rez was around every corner.
Strangely, although Everquest's death penalty was bad I disliked AC2 and EQ2's more: AC2's was a vitae system, you died and I think you had to get more and more xp just to level, and EQ2's was the same or similar. I can recall AC2's and found it an absolutely horrid system to completely quash your desire to exp and level up with debt. And EQ2's debt system I think you even were punished for being in a crap group -going away with shared xp debt.( or something that was a green bar that you had to pay off. Think they had the sense to finally remove that) The best kind of death system I think and is one I've said before and said by a few others is where you gain bonuses for not dieing. 1. - You gain incentive not to die and 2. -you gain a loss upon dieing of those bonuses. Much more preferential system from my perspective.
you beat the big boss and complete the quest. congrats you "won" (pick most any mmo)
You loot and pillage your opponents capital city. congrats you "won" (WAR)
You capture x number of your opponents flags. congrats you "won" (WoW)
deafeat your opponents in open combat. congrats you "won" (Daoc, guildwars...ect)
does the game stop because you "won" a victory? Nope. or at least it doesn't have to.
You fail to get the point tbh, "winning" isn't winning the GAME, it's 'winning' the situation.
If you're in a tight spot in an MMO and things don't look good, having a (severe) death penalty makes the situation as such more believeable, it creates an emotion. You lost and you paid for that loss, as you now have an incentive NOT to die you learn from your mistakes and grow/evolve, making sure it won't happen again. Similarly if you're in a bad spot and still you somehow survive it (due to your earlier experience, as there's an incentive to learn) you feel victorious, again an emotion.
Death penalties make people think about their actions and strategies, ultimately you end up with better (team)players because they HAVE to. So; if you want to play an MMO with a lot of teamwork, where teamwork is required/favoured, where you'll meet good quality players, play the MMO with the most severe death penalty because Darwinism will take care of the people who can't play well and who can't work in a team. They will simply leave the game and when asked why they left they'll lie saying the game sucks blahblahblah, it doesn't suck, it's just that that game required effort, teamwork, thought and preparation which that person wasn't willing/able to do.
This is why you have alliances of over 10k people in EVE, this is why there's 1 ship in EVE called a Titan which will take a big alliance a LONG time of work, effort, minerals and all that to build it, AND IT GETS BUILD because of TEAMWORK, because you HAVE to have teamwork there, since if you don't you die. And since dieing in EVE is painful/costly people learn to work together. It's a rather simple yet powerful concept, sadly most people just want things easy and then start shouting about the quality of players they meet in their MMO's.
So again, what is the point in fighting a battle/mob/situation if there's no repercussion to losing?
lol
I agree. thats what i was trying to tell Itzit.
We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Originally posted by retrospectic
The answer is in red.
the op was owned
I think there are better more immersive and bigger time sink methods to dealing with penalizing death then losing a % of your experience or the dreaded exp debt. I think WoW helps redefine how we think of death by having to run back to your body. In WoW to gain back that 1% would only take a minute or 2; but to have to run back to your body from half way across the map could take 5.
This can probably be expanded even further. My idea. Land of the dead. You have to fight your way back to the land of the living, and beat some bosses that are scaled to your level. Then make a couple variations so people don't notice they just wasted 2 hours and killed 300 monsters for nothing. Ohh Ohh, and it can be made even better by taking away some stuff that would make fighting your way to life funner then the actual game; like Spiritual Powers.
Whats the point of PvP or PvE if there isant some sort of Risk? And no a crappy WoW penalty of finding your body isant a penalty.
Its pretty obvious that all you ahve palyed is WoW no wonder you made such a terrable post.
Once again, the point is to have fun. It is up to you what is fun and what is not.you beat the big boss and complete the quest. congrats you "won" (pick most any mmo)
You loot and pillage your opponents capital city. congrats you "won" (WAR)
You capture x number of your opponents flags. congrats you "won" (WoW)
deafeat your opponents in open combat. congrats you "won" (Daoc, guildwars...ect)
does the game stop because you "won" a victory? Nope. or at least it doesn't have to.
You fail to get the point tbh, "winning" isn't winning the GAME, it's 'winning' the situation.
If you're in a tight spot in an MMO and things don't look good, having a (severe) death penalty makes the situation as such more believeable, it creates an emotion. You lost and you paid for that loss, as you now have an incentive NOT to die you learn from your mistakes and grow/evolve, making sure it won't happen again. Similarly if you're in a bad spot and still you somehow survive it (due to your earlier experience, as there's an incentive to learn) you feel victorious, again an emotion.
Death penalties make people think about their actions and strategies, ultimately you end up with better (team)players because they HAVE to. So; if you want to play an MMO with a lot of teamwork, where teamwork is required/favoured, where you'll meet good quality players, play the MMO with the most severe death penalty because Darwinism will take care of the people who can't play well and who can't work in a team. They will simply leave the game and when asked why they left they'll lie saying the game sucks blahblahblah, it doesn't suck, it's just that that game required effort, teamwork, thought and preparation which that person wasn't willing/able to do.
This is why you have alliances of over 10k people in EVE, this is why there's 1 ship in EVE called a Titan which will take a big alliance a LONG time of work, effort, minerals and all that to build it, AND IT GETS BUILD because of TEAMWORK, because you HAVE to have teamwork there, since if you don't you die. And since dieing in EVE is painful/costly people learn to work together. It's a rather simple yet powerful concept, sadly most people just want things easy and then start shouting about the quality of players they meet in their MMO's.
So again, what is the point in fighting a battle/mob/situation if there's no repercussion to losing?
lol
I agree. thats what i was trying to tell Itzit.
I played EVE for about 5 months. Not long, but long enough to know the death penalty was to harsh for me. I lost a battleship and I lost sleep over it. That is not fun for me. I am not playing games to feel bad or lose sleep over.you beat the big boss and complete the quest. congrats you "won" (pick most any mmo)
You loot and pillage your opponents capital city. congrats you "won" (WAR)
You capture x number of your opponents flags. congrats you "won" (WoW)
deafeat your opponents in open combat. congrats you "won" (Daoc, guildwars...ect)
does the game stop because you "won" a victory? Nope. or at least it doesn't have to.
You fail to get the point tbh, "winning" isn't winning the GAME, it's 'winning' the situation.
If you're in a tight spot in an MMO and things don't look good, having a (severe) death penalty makes the situation as such more believeable, it creates an emotion. You lost and you paid for that loss, as you now have an incentive NOT to die you learn from your mistakes and grow/evolve, making sure it won't happen again. Similarly if you're in a bad spot and still you somehow survive it (due to your earlier experience, as there's an incentive to learn) you feel victorious, again an emotion.
Death penalties make people think about their actions and strategies, ultimately you end up with better (team)players because they HAVE to. So; if you want to play an MMO with a lot of teamwork, where teamwork is required/favoured, where you'll meet good quality players, play the MMO with the most severe death penalty because Darwinism will take care of the people who can't play well and who can't work in a team. They will simply leave the game and when asked why they left they'll lie saying the game sucks blahblahblah, it doesn't suck, it's just that that game required effort, teamwork, thought and preparation which that person wasn't willing/able to do.
This is why you have alliances of over 10k people in EVE, this is why there's 1 ship in EVE called a Titan which will take a big alliance a LONG time of work, effort, minerals and all that to build it, AND IT GETS BUILD because of TEAMWORK, because you HAVE to have teamwork there, since if you don't you die. And since dieing in EVE is painful/costly people learn to work together. It's a rather simple yet powerful concept, sadly most people just want things easy and then start shouting about the quality of players they meet in their MMO's.
So again, what is the point in fighting a battle/mob/situation if there's no repercussion to losing?
lol
I agree. thats what i was trying to tell Itzit.
I played EVE for about 5 months. Not long, but long enough to know the death penalty was to harsh for me. I lost a battleship and I lost sleep over it. That is not fun for me. I am not playing games to feel bad or lose sleep over.But didn't the chance of losing your ship make the environment more 'real'? didn't you feel accomplishment when you flew somewhere or attacked something and you DIDN'T lose your ship? Didn't you have the drive to learn from that experience and better yourself from it, and if you did, didn't that as well feel like an accomplishment? Didn't all of a sudden the whole universe actually feel like it's BIG, because it takes effort to get somewhere? If there's no emotional attachment, what keeps you playing/entertained for so long?
Also, didn't you learn from your loss that you should never fly something you can't afford to lose? Wasn't this explained to you? didn't you read up on it? didn't you figure out the dangers you might run into while doing what you were doing? weren't you prepared? Were you alone? In other words; were you treating the game like an FPS?
In an MMORPG I want to 'feel' the wrold that's being created, I want to be able to make it as 'real' as possible, and all of the things that make things more easy in an MMO (no death penalty, fast/insta travel and more things everyone wants to have to make the game take less effort) is actually a LOSS to the game environment. If people can insta travel you effectively shrink the gameworld, you deprive them from the feeling of being in that world, you deprive them of the option to interact with others while traveling and all that. Same with no deathpenalties, having none or very soft ones actually tear up the very IDEA of an MMORPG.
i thought this post would be different and people could discuss other things other than conan is the best, warhammer will be better, wow is goin or not goin down and so on. we all know the answers to this anyway, conan will be the best, warhammer is wow with more on pvp, and time will eventually kill wow but we never know when this is. (dont take this last sentence seriously its just for fun)
i only compare everything to wow because wow is the most popular mmo and most people have played it if they like mmos and is familiar with it more than other games. but if you want to know here is my list of games i have played: ff11, gw, coh, cov, eve, swg, tmo, wow, rappelz, silkroad, auto assault, dungeon runners, and a few others i cant remember right now.
i thought up a solution. listen to this. when someone beats the hell out of you you get weak right? but this weakness isnt forevor it just lasts for awhile then your all better. you dont do anything you just get better you dont go out and try to fight people to get better it just happens. so why not have the death penalty like this? like the matrix online you get weaken until it wears off. this is probably the only good thing the matrix did was make a good dp. whats wrong with this? why not just have it temporarly and not permanent?
what is wrong with the ghost thing? that made me not want to die it was annoying finding the body.
The other answer is in blue.
It makes your success meaningfull. It makes you feel you just accomplish something.
However, the death penalty should be adapted to the players. This is rather harsh to adapt, as what is fine for a player is cruel and unfair for another, or laughable and easy for another.
This is why you must have more then 1 death penalty, First, you need a death penalty that is light and work with casuals. This is the most important penalty you need. IMO, CoV is perfect with it debt-system. You never remove anything from a player, but to put a debt on his xp, the casual find this heavy of consequences and try to avoid it. It also give him a sense of accomplishment.
So, debt-light is working with casuals. This is 90% of the issue.
But...you need a death system that won't affect the casuals from now on, and that will scare players such as me. You want me to be afraid of dying. If losing XP is not working (while you also remove what you give to a player, this is double bad, not working and removing, you never want to remove stuff a player acquires), then the debt-penalty is certainly not going to work. Personnally I always think that having X lives per month and making sure the casuals won't run out of lives (can't lose more then 1 life per X time unless you play already Y amount of time)...I would be afraid to be unable to play my character. So having an amount of lives per month and been unable to play for a week or two, that would scare the hell outta me...and since you don't remove my hard-earned rewards, only my ability to play this character...you win everywhere.
Anyway, the death penalty give an accomplishment feeling when you succeed despite it. However, the death penalty has to be adjusted so you don't overdo do it, while you scare everyone...thereby you need multiples systems, and the hardest one shouldn't affect the casuals at all.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Todays linear, hold you're hand, candy land gameplay is easy enough already.
At it's core death penalties are punishment for stupidity & lack of planning/ strategy. You wanna go all Leroy Jenkins into a room full of mobs fine but it's gonna cost you and or you're group / raid valuable playing time.
Granted there are exceptions like really difficult raid encounters but even those more often or not can be overcome with proper execution.How many times after dying have you said to yourself "Damn that was stupid I should have known better."
We all have.
In the anonymous, virtual MMO world death penalties are the single best way of hold one accountable to a group.They also serve as a gage to playing ability or how well someones paying attention. If someones constantly dying or causing group /raid wipes their either not too bright or their ability is suspect.
Either way you're better off without them.
Dutchess Zarraa Voltayre
Reborn/Zero Sum/Ancient Legacy/Jagged Legion/Feared/Nuke & Pave.
For me the game itself should be hard to play, not just have penalties upon death to make the game "seem" harder. A good mmo to me would make it so EVERY SINGLE MOB AND ENEMY could kill you, while you were still around that ones strength, if you didn't play well enough or luck was not in your favor, it would be all over. EVERY SINGLE TIME.
A harsh death penalty does nothing but make you spend LESS time playing the game, and MORE time getting ready to play. If you have to spend 5 hours getting ready to play the game every time i die, then thats 5 hours i could have spent in a non dp game actually playing through content. Even a hour of work upon a death is more then what i want. 5-10 minutes is the maximum time i'll spend in any game waiting as a result of a death. Since if i had to spend a hour of my time gaming regearing after a death... thats a hour i'd be able to spend playing anything else and having fun.
I play games to have fun, and if i'm not having fun i'm not gonna play anymore.