I totally agree with the writer for my own personal situation. I came to mmorpg's not so much because of the social aspect, but because single player RP games almost ALWAYS have fps movement which gives me horrific vertigo and headaches. There are two mmorpg's that also do this, D&D Online and LoTR. With the single player games, I got tired of throwing money out the window on games that I really wanted to play and found I could not because they made me physically ill. Morrowind, Oblivion, and Thief are excellent examples of games I bought that could never play more than an hour and always came away sick to my stomach and with a headache because of the FPS camera.
I picked up EQ1, and it was the first RP game of anykind that didn't make me sick with vertigo. It hooked me on mmorpg's. And while I enjoy socializing with the guild, attending event functions, and RPing both in tavern channels in-game and live RP, as for adventuring, I'm mostly solo. I hate PUG's. I can't commit to static groups and can't keep the pace that most my friends keep when they group together. To me, they are running from mob to mob at a frantic pace that I am too ADHD to keep up with when I've got distractions all around me with people wanting to carry converstions with me in tells, a kid over my shoulder wanting to talk to me, the phone ringing, and the laundry needs to come out of the dryer. Heck, even duoing with my own husband can be exhausting at the pace he adventures at and he's patient with me about giving me breaks to get things done that need my attention at the same time.
I could be playing all day on a Saturday, but that doesn't mean I am at my keyboard the entire time. I just have too many things to do, and no group should be expected to wait around for me while I take a lot of breaks. Being able to solo throughout the game if I need to is a necessity for me, and I only buy games that take that into account. Games that mostly force grouping....I've got no time for. Of course, that doesn't mean they don't have their place in the gaming world, just no place for me in particular...and not mentioning any names, but games that have tedious time sinks like naked corpse runs....I don't have time for that either.
Playing in a group can be a great thing, but it also has its cons as well. After learning the hard way a few times ...I soon discovered that questing more often with trusted friends and my guild worked much better for me. There were many times wher e I grouped with ppl I did not know and they left me behind in a place that was not known to me and difficult to get out of alone. Or they would not divide the loot evenly, or not at all. not to say ev ery time was like that..because I did meet some decent folks. I had a lvl 63 dwarf hunter in WOW, and I had pretty good control over my pet and..spometimes it would still attack when I was getting attacked..and I have had people swear and scream that I was making that happen on pupose..so in that instance I would just leave. I usually am not a deserter,but if someone is going to be a jerk then the heck with them. I have done many things solo, but in my case not only do I enjoy playing the games as a hobby..but I also enjoy the social aspect as well.
Originally posted by methulah The MMOWTF column states that versing a real person is stimulating beyond the boundaries of single player games. I agree, but I would argue that being part of a group of people, fighting alongside them, exchanging jokes and banter while supporting them and working as a team is just as, if not more stimulating.
For me, this was true when I was in PuGs in City of Heroes, and we were street-sweeping. Once we entered an instance, though, the social pleasantries and witty banter ended, and we all focused on achieving whatever objective we had to face to win. So in essence, grouping in an instance may as well have been a solo endeavor, because the good teams I was on were too busy doing our jobs to type. I find that to be true in Guild Wars, too.
The group dynamic changes when a group forms to achieve an objective, because no one I know who plays MMOs wants to waste time in a group where half the people are just there to screw off while the other players are working at trying to beat the quest or mission. Again, when I've ended up in such groups I usually quit, since a group like that will probably lose and I'd rather not waste my time on losing.
Now when I group in Guild Wars for an 8-man team, I choose 3 of my heroes, one or two players (at the most 2) to "tag along", and fill with henchmen (NPCs you can use to solo with or fill a team). That way, even if I get a couple of bums on the team who decide to go AFK, I can still finish the quest, and there's always the potential of having someone there to interact with if I choose to do so. It's really the best of both worlds.
Grouping can be frustrating, soloing can be boring but given the choice, I'll take boredom over frustration any day.
The reason I play MMOs is the great character building. The reason I stop playing MMOs is because there comes a time when grouping and soloing only get you so far. Then you are forced to raid. It'd be nice to see a game that offered some sort of advancement besides raiding. There is no shame in soloing in a MMO. We play MMO to interact with others, and more importantly; compete.
I'm really disappointed in this thread. NO FLAMES!
That bit of gratuitous negativity aside, it's nice to see such polite comments. When playing an MMO, you are almost always interacting with others indirectly, even when soloing. Only a seriously depopulated region with entirely predictable spawns would begin to approach the single-player-game experience.
"I love it when the community is stable enough to where you can team with the same people over and over, as in the original Anarchy Online." -- Yeah, I used to log in almost every night at the same time, and my samelevel guildmates would start arriving, we would do some grouping, then go cause trouble at the local Omni 1 bar. That game was amazing - I've never really grouped much in any game since that time. It's hard to get into some of these shallow games ( I won't name any names, hehe ) that are around now when you have experienced some of the more in-depth games in their heyday.
SWG was great in it's time too. It was a great game for soloing. There were so many different things you could do, whether you wanted to group or not.
You know, I agree with the OP, but would like to add something. I have always felt it would be a fresh idea if there were an MMO that would allow you to group your own characters together to make a party. Similar to what Guild Wars does with the Heros, but instead of just extra characters, you could make a healer that you solo with, make a fighter you solo with, make a scout you solo with, etc. Then when you really need a group you could assemble a group from your own characters geared up the way you want or if your buddies want to form a standard group you can pick and choose through your characters and join them in a group. To take it a step further, you could join your self group and join with like 4 other players with similar groups and do raid content if you so desire. That way you can solo, group/solo and small group/raid. Anyway, its just something I always wanted to see in an MMO for soloing harder stuff
The reason I'm cancelling my WoW account this month is due to the lack of solo and/or casual content, so yes, I agree with the original poster that we need to have a balanced game that everyone can enjoy and get equally rewarded no matter what game style you prefer to play.
I'd like to chime in, especially on the lack of time issue. I'm a casual player these days, playing only a couple of times a week for about half an hour at a time. I play City of Heroes, which is friendly to the casual gamer, allowing me to move from mission to mission quickly, and finish it quickly with a solo character like a scrapper.
When you have just half an hour, grouping becomes nearly impossible. I might offer help defeating an archvillain if people have already cleared the rest of the mission, but in general playing with a group has too much of a time overhead.
Other MMO's I've tried are even worse for casual players, since they seem to deliberately try to slow things down. Often just getting to the mission's location takes more time than I have.
"I still count the times me and a small group of friends spent murdering helpless players as some of the best times I've ever had in a game"
Assuming this wasn't just a poor joke sans smileys, then this guy isn't just a large part of the problem with current mmos...he's a large part of the problem with the world in general, especially with the Y/ME/kidult-Gen. God/The Universe help us all!
They say that right before you die, your life flashes before your eyes. That's true, even for a blind man. ^DareDevil^
I agree, most of the time, i spend time in playing MMO's i play solo. If you are a player in agerange 50+ , it is a big problem to find guilds or partys ingame, which understand, that you are not in a hurry to solute each quest ASAP. In a previous post someone has written that to play in a group, means to support all teammembers, or form a balanced group to have a good fight with some Endbosses, or instanced dungeons, or whatever. About Guilds, there is to say from my side i am a nonconformistic player, and the most guilds dont like player, who doesnt follow exactly the guildrules, there specially in PVP/war to other guilds. To increase the char-stats is my prefered playstyle, and no matter is it leasts longer than other players. Missing epic Items is a problem, but i hope some Dev's will build more quests for soloplayers in a game. The options to preform a group for a dungeon,like in GW for arena fights, is a good way, choose from a menue which quest u like to join , if the quest npc is unlocked for u, and jump in with a random formed party.
True, true to play a MMO is more fun than to play a singleplayergame, the option to meet people ingame, for a parttime is the fun to play it, however if you are a soloplayer or not.
Well, one overall theme of this thread is, I don't like wasting game time forming up groups. So the real answer I guess is that developers need to come up with a faster/better way to form groups. Or start making quests such that there isn't a "perfect" balance of classes that is almost required.
Another big help would be strong encouragement to group. Best way to do that as I see it is remove the diminishing returns on grouping. Two players kill a mob...don't make them split the experience/loot. Have the mob drop at least the same amount of exp/gear they would have gotten solo, and even consider adding a group bonus which increases as you get more and more people.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
WoW DID add something that was supposed to speed up group building. They even simply named it the "Looking for Group" function. You opened its window, clicked on the available dungeons, based onyour lvl,and other players interested in thesame dungeons would automatically begin being placed in to groups. Only thing wrong is that players themselves have to actually USE this function. Veryfew every do.
Even with that whole confession behind me, I still count the times me and a small group of friends spent murdering helpless players as some of the best times I've ever had in a game, so maybe there is hope for me yet in the group centric world of MMOs.
Once again, Dan brings in his PvP view into an issue that has absolutely nothing to do with pvp. The above statement, especially when he refers to them as "hapless players" implies to me that he's one of those low-skill bullies that can't beat a player of equal level/gear so he runs to Newbie Land and proves his leet skillz by slaughtering the lowbies. Yeah very impressive there.
I have said it before and I'll say it again. The fun or challenge of pvp comes from defeating an opponent that has a realistic chance of defeating me. If the other player has virtually zero chance of defeating me, what's the fun (or point) in that?
Back on topic...
I do agree with him on the Raiding Being All to do at high levels, I have no problem with raid content as long as I have non-raid options as well. Do I expect the non-raid rewards to be equal? Of course not, but just "better" than what I have would be good. Games like EQ1 are very anti-soloing, so it can take sometimes hours just to FIND a group, especially if you are playing at an off-peak time.
"(I don't recall ever calling Hold Person a 'root' spell in AD&D)"
Uhh dee de dee, if an mmo camp out today and HP was in it , it would not be called a root ... BECAUSE ITS NOT A ROOT.
This guy one doesn't know what a "root" is or two doesn't know what "hold person" is, and here they are talking big and s@## give me a break.
And Ad&D really was not about soloing... really. (You could do whatever you wanted with it but playing it with yourself is beyond sad).
I understand the entire i want to solo bit ... i just wish mmos would go back to more groups but make them fun ... not penalties but bonuses.. i think that is what mmos are missing atm. (A REASON to group, beyond to get an eleet sword).
"I have said it before and I'll say it again. The fun or challenge of pvp comes from defeating an opponent that has a realistic chance of defeating me. If the other player has virtually zero chance of defeating me, what's the fun (or point) in that?"
Best pvp in mmo is DAOC w/o a contest because of this ... you can be out numbered and you can be flanked by an entire Side that you where not even fighting... of course you can still win (proably will not but it happens), but at the same time you may be the people flanking or the people orginaly defending. Sometimes your outnumbered 2-1 but you win because of a few players wonderful actions.(2-1 is harsh tho)
There is little room for solo player s in daoc pvp unless your a stealther AND THIS SI THE WAY MMOS SHOULD BE. You should not be able to solo a fg by yourself. But mmos lean that way in the name of making solo content. Or they make groups not help so much in pvp / pve .... same thign if ya don't really need it then your not gonna do it and then whats the point of a mmo .. play a 8-12-32 player game like an fps or something.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Having read your reply to the OP you have ignored it or misunderstood it totally or you are just ranting for rantings sake. I guess you have to keep your ranking up but any rep you have is down the drain ...
The OPS main critique is around the change of approach from in depth and enjoyable to a baby fest of abreviations for the sake of the rat race to be... well a lame underacheiver
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Having read your reply to the OP you have ignored it or misunderstood it totally or you are just ranting for rantings sake. I guess you have to keep your ranking up but any rep you have is down the drain ... The OPS main critique is around the change of approach from in depth and enjoyable to a baby fest of abreviations for the sake of the rat race to be... well a lame underacheiver
Hmm including a name (who you are talking about) will help clear stuff up.
IF its me , why because the poster obviously is not familer with roots or D&D and then he goes out and talks about it ? Who does me pointing this out ruin my rep?
"The OPS main critique is around the change of approach from in depth and enjoyable to a baby fest of abreviations for the sake of the rat race to be... well a lame underacheiver"
- To address this point , the reason for these "abreviations"[sic] are because unlike in D&D there are a lot of spells that do the same thing or similar things (with-in a single game and among many games). Thus Terms are defined to describe the basics of the spell. AOE (hits an area of effect) , Root (zero movement), etc. How do these lessen a game or make it a "baby fest" as you say ? I can call fireball a wiz/sorc 3rd circle or CL spell and its still AOE. see these terms fit the D&D world not all of them but hey thats why new terms are made , and what is wrong with that.
Still your wrong he spent most of the article on solo content vs group.
Sorry this is so sad the most fun i have had is zerg and group pvp where THERE WAS A FIGHT and up hill battle and i won. taking 5 people with 2 one fg vs 2 fgs. THIS is was makes the BEST moments in mmos, a challenge , winning against the odds. Tho i can tell you some times 2 fg repedatly kills my FG over and over ... its not so fun. But its that one win you pull off that make it worth it.
Not your full group GANKING, this posters believe groups are good because you can GANK with them. And your telling me i what ".. but any rep you have is down the drain ..." I would argue it not my Rep. that is down the drain, for i am not the one defending that the full extent of a group's use is to GANK.
I understand that the writer of this posted his feelings thats fine , i simply do not share them and truely he seems rather removed from the 1st and 2nd gen mmos (muds and D&D) for you almost had to group in those to really have fun in them. MMO's if anythign have become more solo centric because groups offer problems , people are not perfect they will upset you , steal loot, etc. but at the same time MMO's are really more than single player games that "feels much more alive" , if your missing that i feel your missing the best fun MMO's have to offer. If you disagree with me go ahead say it, but i have soloed and i have lead guilds and been part of guilds that accept everyoen and still compeat at the best levels of the game, supply noobs ... ie one of the few rare guilds that are almost perfect its happened only twice to me , i been in the eleet of eleetest guilds , i been in the smallest and poorest guilds, i been solo too. All offer different experience but if you have not experienced them its hard to comment about the different aspects of grouping. Still maybe the writer has... but Ganking would not be high on the list accomplishments and fun other than for the solo , and poor/sad guild. (ps i loved a few of my sad guilds they just were not very good).
If i am wrong then so be it. Oh and if Isane wasn't talking to me then ... oh well , now you know why i posted what i did before.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Lots of people are casual players thess days, getting a group is not always a quick and easy experience. If you only have a couple hours to play, getting into the right group might be quite hard.
So if a game has not too much solo content, that will be a hardship on some players.
But, the concept of a MMO is to play with others, so it is good sometimes you have to group to achieve some goals.
Some good games, like AC1 had no group ability, yet you still played with others in certain areas as it was pretty dangerous to do otherwise.
Take Wow for an example, you need to group for the instances, but can solo much of the quest content. Grouping was pretty easy when they had the lfg channel, but when they replaced that channel with an inept lfg tool, everyone started using other less useful methods to form groups, like trade and local channels. Shows how a devs can mess it up too.
Just curious, I was confused about the hold person commentary. What does that have to do with grouping? P.S. hold person is most certainly a root, maybe you have a different definition, but you are most definitely in a minority on your view of it.
... Just curious, I was confused about the hold person commentary. What does that have to do with grouping? P.S. hold person is most certainly a root, maybe you have a different definition, but you are most definitely in a minority on your view of it.
...
Ps i can not believe i am posting here again I'll try to clear it up .. Doubt ill be successful however.
Your confused because you also do not know what HP or a root is.
Hold person is this.
"It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech."
"Paralyzes target humaniod."
"The enemy humanoid becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware, but can take no actions for maximum of 6 seconds per caster level."
- various but licenced sources
Root is
"movment reduced by 99%:
"Entangling Roots - Roots the target in place and causes X nature damage over X seconds."
"Target is effectively immobilized (loses 99% of possible movement speed) for the duration of the spell. If any damage is done to the target, the spell will break."
"Arcane Bindings Roots the wizard's target in place, preventing them from movement. Any damage received by the target has a chance at breaking the effect." _ i think was not a mage in eq2 so... but i am pretty sure (i made one just didn't play it much).
Do you see the difference. If not ill tell you, in HOLD person you can take no action because your paralyzed , ROOTs on the other hand you can do what ever you freakin want but you can't move.
- and thus i win (ok this is cocky, but you people should know this .... this writer should know this he is writing for a mmo gaming focused site. ) How am i supposted to read that article and go , oh yeah their opinion is right, when the writer doesn't even know 1 the spells or 2 the terminology. (PS Hold person is very defined and i picked 3 of the more influencing mmorpgs for root. If you say well that not what i think root is then your in the minority , because thats how most mmorpgs and their players define a Root). Wow DAOC and EQ 1/2 i mean come on i could look for more, i randomly picked 3 and bingo root = ROOT = immobilize, not paralyze.
HP is CC = crowed control = stun = a few other things . (MMO terms do not really = D&D terms you kinda have to draw lines of function, regardless it is CC).
and when i point this out ( and that this article really says like 4 different things in 5 or 6 paragraphs, and i am asking so what was the point? of this writing .. really) I get told i lost my "mmo cred" (yes a joke peoples) because i don't know what I am talking about.... i am like what the. Really i thik alot of people agree with most desenting voices about mmos in general because they are not perfect , and yet as humans thats what we want.. IE fix our games make them perfect.
To clear things up before i get another post, I believe the writer was saying :
1) MMORPG's today lack the depth that old rpgs had . Look at the spell discriptions and what they do. (REally look at them they have a story to themselves often, i loved playing wiz that would only cast like bigby's and other named spells just for the role play of it. (had to be higher i realize this) even weapons had stories sometimes). IE depth. [agree but it not like there is a lot of type of spells in mmos today ... there more than Ad&D , yet many mimic each other, so do some in D&D tho]
2) Soloing is good - as the author i like it, so do many others [So do i {jetrpg}, I solo or play with rl friends and sometimes add a few people who are good/fun most of my MMo play time, so i get this and agree.]
3) Solo play should provide players with compeditive equipment [agree]
4)Groups are fun if you use them to gank -- maybe they do have uses. [disagree for them many reason listed in the last post]
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
I must admit, I haven't read all replies, but just want to give my 2cts worth.
As for an eyeopener because you mention ADnD, I wonder did you go venture out alone (when a person DM was around and other people with different classes) or did you group? I doubt you did...again because of the social aspect. MMOs are basically that paper and pencil game applied to PC gaming industry.
Now back to some of your points. Having solo players isnt the problem. The problem as mentioned is, missing real solo player content. And this is because of the fact of greed of players... What would a solo player as a quest reward for example? You cant expect to get the same "uber leet" loot from a special solo player content quest as that from a raid.
Unfortunately, a lot of solo players DO have that attitude. They *want* to be able to solo *everything* (SWG is a good example, with recent Chap 6 update, making the AI *normal* (read DIFFICULT) again) and don't care about the fact that for that "uber leet" loot groups are a prime requisite for getting it done.
Then some of the better solo players state that is stil can be done, soloing some of the tougher mobs, but again, most of them keep on whining about the difficulty. And more complaints arise, same like here, about being unable to group/to find a group/buff and so on in a short time.I call that BS. With SWG all of that got killed, because of the NGE, but I remember times, I had to DECLINE group invites, because I wanted to do something else. I remember times, where it was not an issue to get buffs or anything like that, because their were waiting lines (instead of people complaining now that nobody is around to give them)... A CHALLENGING PvE (read: not everything solo-able again, especially not if you want to go in with blazing fists and WITHOUT using your head and tacticts) will lead to more socializing and more people getting together and helping eachother out. Vanguard is an example where that works too.
Then the next part is "end game".. What is there to do for the solo player beside "pvp-ing". Most, if not al,l make it sound like PVP is the most important thing to do in a game. And then even more whining start "I cant defeat class X, nerf-calls" and so on and so forth. In the end it's the groupplayer and or the PvE solo-player who are drawing the short straws.
And that, basically is what keeps pissing me off.
An MMO is NOT about grouping, it's NOT about SOLO-ing, it's about ENJOYING and having fun WITH others, socializing.
If PvP leads to anger, jealousy and the-unable-to-be-the-uber-leet-invincible-solo-player kind of people they have NO place in an MMO.
Go play a Single player, or one purely DESIGNATED for Online gaming (like halflife, battlefield, you name them) where PvP/solo is part of the system.
And in case you haven't noticed, I'm both a solo player (but NOT a PVPer as I don't like it much; I'm not good at it, because I just cant care enough about my own performance, but because I like to have a challenge in PvE and enjoy helping people in groups, socializing, tutoring the game and so on). And most of those people I meet are likeminded.
As for your point about solocontent.. yes it should be there, but NOT designed purely for the soloplayer. That has NO place in an MMO.
I really don't see how solo play can test your skills. Let me make that clearer with examples:
-Open-PvP: well there will always be people who will group to win against the lesser-disorganised warriors and then sort things out between them (so group-playing to the very end wins)
-anything non-instanced like a boss made for solo-killing would be easily farmed by a small group of friends
-instanced solo-boss: i bet if that were created then in several weeks there would be 9999 step-by-step guides made by hardcore skilled players making everything easy for everyone ("after 3 secs cast ***, then run to the 3rd tile to the right...etc"
-crafting or questing rewards: let's say there were specifical drops that u can't trade, only get them yourself. Well i doubt this is skill, it's more like farming...so "let's give grand prizes to the farmers and macro-ers!!" is not a good idea.
I can't find any other ideas. I am against immense groups of people for raiding and such, because that makes strategy a bad joke. But i do enjoy getting with 10-20 or so of my friends and going to kill some strong boss. In such a group, strategy matters and individual skill is important since u usually have a specific role in the group and if that goes wrong it's clearly your fault. The downside is having to spend a lot of time finding the right people, but i like to think that a MMO-player without friends in-game is not a good player. It rarelly happens to me to log on and not find a party somewhere fast (and not only in weekends and such).
Comments
I totally agree with the writer for my own personal situation. I came to mmorpg's not so much because of the social aspect, but because single player RP games almost ALWAYS have fps movement which gives me horrific vertigo and headaches. There are two mmorpg's that also do this, D&D Online and LoTR. With the single player games, I got tired of throwing money out the window on games that I really wanted to play and found I could not because they made me physically ill. Morrowind, Oblivion, and Thief are excellent examples of games I bought that could never play more than an hour and always came away sick to my stomach and with a headache because of the FPS camera.
I picked up EQ1, and it was the first RP game of anykind that didn't make me sick with vertigo. It hooked me on mmorpg's. And while I enjoy socializing with the guild, attending event functions, and RPing both in tavern channels in-game and live RP, as for adventuring, I'm mostly solo. I hate PUG's. I can't commit to static groups and can't keep the pace that most my friends keep when they group together. To me, they are running from mob to mob at a frantic pace that I am too ADHD to keep up with when I've got distractions all around me with people wanting to carry converstions with me in tells, a kid over my shoulder wanting to talk to me, the phone ringing, and the laundry needs to come out of the dryer. Heck, even duoing with my own husband can be exhausting at the pace he adventures at and he's patient with me about giving me breaks to get things done that need my attention at the same time.
I could be playing all day on a Saturday, but that doesn't mean I am at my keyboard the entire time. I just have too many things to do, and no group should be expected to wait around for me while I take a lot of breaks. Being able to solo throughout the game if I need to is a necessity for me, and I only buy games that take that into account. Games that mostly force grouping....I've got no time for. Of course, that doesn't mean they don't have their place in the gaming world, just no place for me in particular...and not mentioning any names, but games that have tedious time sinks like naked corpse runs....I don't have time for that either.
Playing in a group can be a great thing, but it also has its cons as well. After learning the hard way a few times ...I soon discovered that questing more often with trusted friends and my guild worked much better for me. There were many times wher e I grouped with ppl I did not know and they left me behind in a place that was not known to me and difficult to get out of alone. Or they would not divide the loot evenly, or not at all. not to say ev ery time was like that..because I did meet some decent folks. I had a lvl 63 dwarf hunter in WOW, and I had pretty good control over my pet and..spometimes it would still attack when I was getting attacked..and I have had people swear and scream that I was making that happen on pupose..so in that instance I would just leave. I usually am not a deserter,but if someone is going to be a jerk then the heck with them. I have done many things solo, but in my case not only do I enjoy playing the games as a hobby..but I also enjoy the social aspect as well.
For me, this was true when I was in PuGs in City of Heroes, and we were street-sweeping. Once we entered an instance, though, the social pleasantries and witty banter ended, and we all focused on achieving whatever objective we had to face to win. So in essence, grouping in an instance may as well have been a solo endeavor, because the good teams I was on were too busy doing our jobs to type. I find that to be true in Guild Wars, too.
The group dynamic changes when a group forms to achieve an objective, because no one I know who plays MMOs wants to waste time in a group where half the people are just there to screw off while the other players are working at trying to beat the quest or mission. Again, when I've ended up in such groups I usually quit, since a group like that will probably lose and I'd rather not waste my time on losing.
Now when I group in Guild Wars for an 8-man team, I choose 3 of my heroes, one or two players (at the most 2) to "tag along", and fill with henchmen (NPCs you can use to solo with or fill a team). That way, even if I get a couple of bums on the team who decide to go AFK, I can still finish the quest, and there's always the potential of having someone there to interact with if I choose to do so. It's really the best of both worlds.
Grouping can be frustrating, soloing can be boring but given the choice, I'll take boredom over frustration any day.
I'm really disappointed in this thread. NO FLAMES!
That bit of gratuitous negativity aside, it's nice to see such polite comments. When playing an MMO, you are almost always interacting with others indirectly, even when soloing. Only a seriously depopulated region with entirely predictable spawns would begin to approach the single-player-game experience.
"I love it when the community is stable enough to where you can team with the same people over and over, as in the original Anarchy Online." -- Yeah, I used to log in almost every night at the same time, and my samelevel guildmates would start arriving, we would do some grouping, then go cause trouble at the local Omni 1 bar. That game was amazing - I've never really grouped much in any game since that time. It's hard to get into some of these shallow games ( I won't name any names, hehe ) that are around now when you have experienced some of the more in-depth games in their heyday.
SWG was great in it's time too. It was a great game for soloing. There were so many different things you could do, whether you wanted to group or not.
TANSTAAFL
When you have just half an hour, grouping becomes nearly impossible. I might offer help defeating an archvillain if people have already cleared the rest of the mission, but in general playing with a group has too much of a time overhead.
Other MMO's I've tried are even worse for casual players, since they seem to deliberately try to slow things down. Often just getting to the mission's location takes more time than I have.
The English was fine. The grammar sucked.
Ironman, check out Sword of the New World. Its in beta but you can make your own 3 man team from scratch and play from there.
Assuming this wasn't just a poor joke sans smileys, then this guy isn't just a large part of the problem with current mmos...he's a large part of the problem with the world in general, especially with the Y/ME/kidult-Gen. God/The Universe help us all!
They say that right before you die, your life flashes before your eyes. That's true, even for a blind man. ^DareDevil^
I agree, most of the time, i spend time in playing MMO's i play solo. If you are a player in agerange 50+ , it is a big problem to find guilds or partys ingame, which understand, that you are not in a hurry to solute each quest ASAP. In a previous post someone has written that to play in a group, means to support all teammembers, or form a balanced group to have a good fight with some Endbosses, or instanced dungeons, or whatever. About Guilds, there is to say from my side i am a nonconformistic player, and the most guilds dont like player, who doesnt follow exactly the guildrules, there specially in PVP/war to other guilds. To increase the char-stats is my prefered playstyle, and no matter is it leasts longer than other players. Missing epic Items is a problem, but i hope some Dev's will build more quests for soloplayers in a game. The options to preform a group for a dungeon,like in GW for arena fights, is a good way, choose from a menue which quest u like to join , if the quest npc is unlocked for u, and jump in with a random formed party.
True, true to play a MMO is more fun than to play a singleplayergame, the option to meet people ingame, for a parttime is the fun to play it, however if you are a soloplayer or not.
Another big help would be strong encouragement to group. Best way to do that as I see it is remove the diminishing returns on grouping. Two players kill a mob...don't make them split the experience/loot. Have the mob drop at least the same amount of exp/gear they would have gotten solo, and even consider adding a group bonus which increases as you get more and more people.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I agree with what is said in the article. People flame others who like to solo just because it's called an MMORPG.
Their arguement is why play a mmorpg if you want to solo? And along comes this article that explains it all.
Quote From Dan:
Even with that whole confession behind me, I still count the times me and a small group of friends spent murdering helpless players as some of the best times I've ever had in a game, so maybe there is hope for me yet in the group centric world of MMOs.
Once again, Dan brings in his PvP view into an issue that has absolutely nothing to do with pvp. The above statement, especially when he refers to them as "hapless players" implies to me that he's one of those low-skill bullies that can't beat a player of equal level/gear so he runs to Newbie Land and proves his leet skillz by slaughtering the lowbies. Yeah very impressive there.
I have said it before and I'll say it again. The fun or challenge of pvp comes from defeating an opponent that has a realistic chance of defeating me. If the other player has virtually zero chance of defeating me, what's the fun (or point) in that?
Back on topic...
I do agree with him on the Raiding Being All to do at high levels, I have no problem with raid content as long as I have non-raid options as well. Do I expect the non-raid rewards to be equal? Of course not, but just "better" than what I have would be good. Games like EQ1 are very anti-soloing, so it can take sometimes hours just to FIND a group, especially if you are playing at an off-peak time.
"(I don't recall ever calling Hold Person a 'root' spell in AD&D)"
Uhh dee de dee, if an mmo camp out today and HP was in it , it would not be called a root ... BECAUSE ITS NOT A ROOT.
This guy one doesn't know what a "root" is or two doesn't know what "hold person" is, and here they are talking big and s@## give me a break.
And Ad&D really was not about soloing... really. (You could do whatever you wanted with it but playing it with yourself is beyond sad).
I understand the entire i want to solo bit ... i just wish mmos would go back to more groups but make them fun ... not penalties but bonuses.. i think that is what mmos are missing atm. (A REASON to group, beyond to get an eleet sword).
"I have said it before and I'll say it again. The fun or challenge of pvp comes from defeating an opponent that has a realistic chance of defeating me. If the other player has virtually zero chance of defeating me, what's the fun (or point) in that?"
Best pvp in mmo is DAOC w/o a contest because of this ... you can be out numbered and you can be flanked by an entire Side that you where not even fighting... of course you can still win (proably will not but it happens), but at the same time you may be the people flanking or the people orginaly defending. Sometimes your outnumbered 2-1 but you win because of a few players wonderful actions.(2-1 is harsh tho)
There is little room for solo player s in daoc pvp unless your a stealther AND THIS SI THE WAY MMOS SHOULD BE. You should not be able to solo a fg by yourself. But mmos lean that way in the name of making solo content. Or they make groups not help so much in pvp / pve .... same thign if ya don't really need it then your not gonna do it and then whats the point of a mmo .. play a 8-12-32 player game like an fps or something.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Having read your reply to the OP you have ignored it or misunderstood it totally or you are just ranting for rantings sake. I guess you have to keep your ranking up but any rep you have is down the drain ...
The OPS main critique is around the change of approach from in depth and enjoyable to a baby fest of abreviations for the sake of the rat race to be... well a lame underacheiver
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I'm Here. I'm Awesome. Get Used To It.
IF its me , why because the poster obviously is not familer with roots or D&D and then he goes out and talks about it ? Who does me pointing this out ruin my rep?
"The OPS main critique is around the change of approach from in depth and enjoyable to a baby fest of abreviations for the sake of the rat race to be... well a lame underacheiver"
- To address this point , the reason for these "abreviations"[sic] are because unlike in D&D there are a lot of spells that do the same thing or similar things (with-in a single game and among many games). Thus Terms are defined to describe the basics of the spell. AOE (hits an area of effect) , Root (zero movement), etc. How do these lessen a game or make it a "baby fest" as you say ? I can call fireball a wiz/sorc 3rd circle or CL spell and its still AOE. see these terms fit the D&D world not all of them but hey thats why new terms are made , and what is wrong with that.
Still your wrong he spent most of the article on solo content vs group.
Sorry this is so sad the most fun i have had is zerg and group pvp where THERE WAS A FIGHT and up hill battle and i won. taking 5 people with 2 one fg vs 2 fgs. THIS is was makes the BEST moments in mmos, a challenge , winning against the odds. Tho i can tell you some times 2 fg repedatly kills my FG over and over ... its not so fun. But its that one win you pull off that make it worth it.
Not your full group GANKING, this posters believe groups are good because you can GANK with them. And your telling me i what ".. but any rep you have is down the drain ..." I would argue it not my Rep. that is down the drain, for i am not the one defending that the full extent of a group's use is to GANK.
I understand that the writer of this posted his feelings thats fine , i simply do not share them and truely he seems rather removed from the 1st and 2nd gen mmos (muds and D&D) for you almost had to group in those to really have fun in them. MMO's if anythign have become more solo centric because groups offer problems , people are not perfect they will upset you , steal loot, etc. but at the same time MMO's are really more than single player games that "feels much more alive" , if your missing that i feel your missing the best fun MMO's have to offer. If you disagree with me go ahead say it, but i have soloed and i have lead guilds and been part of guilds that accept everyoen and still compeat at the best levels of the game, supply noobs ... ie one of the few rare guilds that are almost perfect its happened only twice to me , i been in the eleet of eleetest guilds , i been in the smallest and poorest guilds, i been solo too. All offer different experience but if you have not experienced them its hard to comment about the different aspects of grouping. Still maybe the writer has... but Ganking would not be high on the list accomplishments and fun other than for the solo , and poor/sad guild. (ps i loved a few of my sad guilds they just were not very good).
If i am wrong then so be it. Oh and if Isane wasn't talking to me then ... oh well , now you know why i posted what i did before.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Lots of people are casual players thess days, getting a group is not always a quick and easy experience. If you only have a couple hours to play, getting into the right group might be quite hard.
So if a game has not too much solo content, that will be a hardship on some players.
But, the concept of a MMO is to play with others, so it is good sometimes you have to group to achieve some goals.
Some good games, like AC1 had no group ability, yet you still played with others in certain areas as it was pretty dangerous to do otherwise.
Take Wow for an example, you need to group for the instances, but can solo much of the quest content. Grouping was pretty easy when they had the lfg channel, but when they replaced that channel with an inept lfg tool, everyone started using other less useful methods to form groups, like trade and local channels. Shows how a devs can mess it up too.
Just curious, I was confused about the hold person commentary. What does that have to do with grouping? P.S. hold person is most certainly a root, maybe you have a different definition, but you are most definitely in a minority on your view of it.
Your confused because you also do not know what HP or a root is.
Hold person is this.
"It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech."
"Paralyzes target humaniod."
"The enemy humanoid becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware, but can take no actions for maximum of 6 seconds per caster level."
- various but licenced sources
Root is
"movment reduced by 99%:
"Entangling Roots - Roots the target in place and causes X nature damage over X seconds."
"Target is effectively immobilized (loses 99% of possible movement speed) for the duration of the spell. If any damage is done to the target, the spell will break."
"Arcane Bindings Roots the wizard's target in place, preventing them from movement. Any damage received by the target has a chance at breaking the effect." _ i think was not a mage in eq2 so... but i am pretty sure (i made one just didn't play it much).
Do you see the difference. If not ill tell you, in HOLD person you can take no action because your paralyzed , ROOTs on the other hand you can do what ever you freakin want but you can't move.
- and thus i win (ok this is cocky, but you people should know this .... this writer should know this he is writing for a mmo gaming focused site. ) How am i supposted to read that article and go , oh yeah their opinion is right, when the writer doesn't even know 1 the spells or 2 the terminology. (PS Hold person is very defined and i picked 3 of the more influencing mmorpgs for root. If you say well that not what i think root is then your in the minority , because thats how most mmorpgs and their players define a Root). Wow DAOC and EQ 1/2 i mean come on i could look for more, i randomly picked 3 and bingo root = ROOT = immobilize, not paralyze.
HP is CC = crowed control = stun = a few other things . (MMO terms do not really = D&D terms you kinda have to draw lines of function, regardless it is CC).
and when i point this out ( and that this article really says like 4 different things in 5 or 6 paragraphs, and i am asking so what was the point? of this writing .. really) I get told i lost my "mmo cred" (yes a joke peoples) because i don't know what I am talking about.... i am like what the. Really i thik alot of people agree with most desenting voices about mmos in general because they are not perfect , and yet as humans thats what we want.. IE fix our games make them perfect.
To clear things up before i get another post, I believe the writer was saying :
1) MMORPG's today lack the depth that old rpgs had . Look at the spell discriptions and what they do. (REally look at them they have a story to themselves often, i loved playing wiz that would only cast like bigby's and other named spells just for the role play of it. (had to be higher i realize this) even weapons had stories sometimes). IE depth. [agree but it not like there is a lot of type of spells in mmos today ... there more than Ad&D , yet many mimic each other, so do some in D&D tho]
2) Soloing is good - as the author i like it, so do many others [So do i {jetrpg}, I solo or play with rl friends and sometimes add a few people who are good/fun most of my MMo play time, so i get this and agree.]
3) Solo play should provide players with compeditive equipment [agree]
4)Groups are fun if you use them to gank -- maybe they do have uses. [disagree for them many reason listed in the last post]
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
As for an eyeopener because you mention ADnD, I wonder did you go venture out alone (when a person DM was around and other people with different classes) or did you group? I doubt you did...again because of the social aspect. MMOs are basically that paper and pencil game applied to PC gaming industry.
Now back to some of your points. Having solo players isnt the problem. The problem as mentioned is, missing real solo player content. And this is because of the fact of greed of players... What would a solo player as a quest reward for example? You cant expect to get the same "uber leet" loot from a special solo player content quest as that from a raid.
Unfortunately, a lot of solo players DO have that attitude. They *want* to be able to solo *everything* (SWG is a good example, with recent Chap 6 update, making the AI *normal* (read DIFFICULT) again) and don't care about the fact that for that "uber leet" loot groups are a prime requisite for getting it done.
Then some of the better solo players state that is stil can be done, soloing some of the tougher mobs, but again, most of them keep on whining about the difficulty. And more complaints arise, same like here, about being unable to group/to find a group/buff and so on in a short time.I call that BS. With SWG all of that got killed, because of the NGE, but I remember times, I had to DECLINE group invites, because I wanted to do something else. I remember times, where it was not an issue to get buffs or anything like that, because their were waiting lines (instead of people complaining now that nobody is around to give them)... A CHALLENGING PvE (read: not everything solo-able again, especially not if you want to go in with blazing fists and WITHOUT using your head and tacticts) will lead to more socializing and more people getting together and helping eachother out. Vanguard is an example where that works too.
Then the next part is "end game".. What is there to do for the solo player beside "pvp-ing". Most, if not al,l make it sound like PVP is the most important thing to do in a game. And then even more whining start "I cant defeat class X, nerf-calls" and so on and so forth. In the end it's the groupplayer and or the PvE solo-player who are drawing the short straws.
And that, basically is what keeps pissing me off.
An MMO is NOT about grouping, it's NOT about SOLO-ing, it's about ENJOYING and having fun WITH others, socializing.
If PvP leads to anger, jealousy and the-unable-to-be-the-uber-leet-invincible-solo-player kind of people they have NO place in an MMO.
Go play a Single player, or one purely DESIGNATED for Online gaming (like halflife, battlefield, you name them) where PvP/solo is part of the system.
And in case you haven't noticed, I'm both a solo player (but NOT a PVPer as I don't like it much; I'm not good at it, because I just cant care enough about my own performance, but because I like to have a challenge in PvE and enjoy helping people in groups, socializing, tutoring the game and so on). And most of those people I meet are likeminded.
As for your point about solocontent.. yes it should be there, but NOT designed purely for the soloplayer. That has NO place in an MMO.
Ranger @ Heart
Wildlife Preserver
Dariane Tracker
I really don't see how solo play can test your skills. Let me make that clearer with examples:
-Open-PvP: well there will always be people who will group to win against the lesser-disorganised warriors and then sort things out between them (so group-playing to the very end wins)
-anything non-instanced like a boss made for solo-killing would be easily farmed by a small group of friends
-instanced solo-boss: i bet if that were created then in several weeks there would be 9999 step-by-step guides made by hardcore skilled players making everything easy for everyone ("after 3 secs cast ***, then run to the 3rd tile to the right...etc"
-crafting or questing rewards: let's say there were specifical drops that u can't trade, only get them yourself. Well i doubt this is skill, it's more like farming...so "let's give grand prizes to the farmers and macro-ers!!" is not a good idea.
I can't find any other ideas. I am against immense groups of people for raiding and such, because that makes strategy a bad joke. But i do enjoy getting with 10-20 or so of my friends and going to kill some strong boss. In such a group, strategy matters and individual skill is important since u usually have a specific role in the group and if that goes wrong it's clearly your fault. The downside is having to spend a lot of time finding the right people, but i like to think that a MMO-player without friends in-game is not a good player. It rarelly happens to me to log on and not find a party somewhere fast (and not only in weekends and such).