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Skills are the same as Levels for many aspects of an MMORPG
gillvane1
Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 1,503
Whenever discussing features in an MMORPG, I often see someone post that the problem is not the feature that's being proposed, but that the design is based on levels, and that a skill system would be much better.
However, for many aspects of an MMORPG, there is no practical difference in a skill system or a level system. This is especially true in terms of power levels and character progression, unless you are designing something like Guild Wars, where you simply get "different' skills, not more powerful ones.
For example, when discussing the problem that a level 50 can always beat a level 5 character, someone will say the problem is it's a level system, and it would be better to be a skill system. But wouldn't a character with a skill level of 50 in sword swinging beat a character with a skill level of 5 in sword swinging? So, it amounts to the same thing, an increase in overall power. Most things can be done in either a skill system or a level system. For example you could design a game so that a level 5 can still hit and damage a level 50, or a skill level 5 character can hit and damage a skill level 50 character. You could also design a skill system where a player with a skill level of 50 in sword swinging could not be hit by a character with a skill level of 5 in sword swinging (because they have such a great parry or whatever). It's more a matter of how you want to design the game, than whether you use a skill system or a level system.
One thing a skill system does accomplish, is allow you to make characters that have a wide range of different abilities, and that are possibly different from most other characters in the game. However, you don't want to end up with everyone in the game choosing the exact same skills because that's perceived as the best template, so that even though there's a huge choice of skills, every character in the game is exactly the same. To prevent this there are usually limits on how you can choose skills, or how skills combine to give you a bonus, etc., which ends up making the system very similar to being a class system, just with a bit more variety.
As a matter of personal preference, I dislike games where using a skill raises it. FOr example, your sword swinging skill gets better each time you swing your sword. IMO this is just an incentive to do things repetitively, even if that's not how you would logically play your character, just to raise a skill. For example, lets say I can kill a Mob with one hit from my fireball spell, but it takes 5 hits of my sword, because my sword skill isn't that high. I'll just fireball the Mobs, since that would be the best thing to do right? No, since I want to raise my sword skill, I'll wack the mobs all day to raise it, even though it would be faster, easier, and more xp to use the fireball spell. I just find that annoying.
MMORPG Maker
However, for many aspects of an MMORPG, there is no practical difference in a skill system or a level system. This is especially true in terms of power levels and character progression, unless you are designing something like Guild Wars, where you simply get "different' skills, not more powerful ones.
For example, when discussing the problem that a level 50 can always beat a level 5 character, someone will say the problem is it's a level system, and it would be better to be a skill system. But wouldn't a character with a skill level of 50 in sword swinging beat a character with a skill level of 5 in sword swinging? So, it amounts to the same thing, an increase in overall power. Most things can be done in either a skill system or a level system. For example you could design a game so that a level 5 can still hit and damage a level 50, or a skill level 5 character can hit and damage a skill level 50 character. You could also design a skill system where a player with a skill level of 50 in sword swinging could not be hit by a character with a skill level of 5 in sword swinging (because they have such a great parry or whatever). It's more a matter of how you want to design the game, than whether you use a skill system or a level system.
One thing a skill system does accomplish, is allow you to make characters that have a wide range of different abilities, and that are possibly different from most other characters in the game. However, you don't want to end up with everyone in the game choosing the exact same skills because that's perceived as the best template, so that even though there's a huge choice of skills, every character in the game is exactly the same. To prevent this there are usually limits on how you can choose skills, or how skills combine to give you a bonus, etc., which ends up making the system very similar to being a class system, just with a bit more variety.
As a matter of personal preference, I dislike games where using a skill raises it. FOr example, your sword swinging skill gets better each time you swing your sword. IMO this is just an incentive to do things repetitively, even if that's not how you would logically play your character, just to raise a skill. For example, lets say I can kill a Mob with one hit from my fireball spell, but it takes 5 hits of my sword, because my sword skill isn't that high. I'll just fireball the Mobs, since that would be the best thing to do right? No, since I want to raise my sword skill, I'll wack the mobs all day to raise it, even though it would be faster, easier, and more xp to use the fireball spell. I just find that annoying.
MMORPG Maker
Comments
No its not. But you are free to be as wrong as you want, I wont start to argue if you cant even understand there is a difference between skills and levels. Thick walls come to mind.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force"
Ok then, here's some thoughts on it.
Skill system
Versatile, to allow you to create the character the way you want. Either through limitation of points or through xp gained/earned. When designing my skill system something we took into consideration was the fact you should not make it a hard process to gain skills but fairly easy to accomplish not like killing rats all day to "ding" ala class system.
Flexible- enough to allow you to design a game that will allow you to drop skills if you so desire (if based on a max point system) and retake new skills so that your not stuck in the same "Rut' of a class and unable to change. I don't know any class based systems that really allow for this unless there is a class respec involved, but wouldn't that basically reset all your skills to 0? Taking both previous and current implementations of SWG as an example here you could gain boxes within your profession through xp, train them at a trainer or by appreticeship and then drop them at you whim if you decided you wanted to be a bounty hunter instead of a image designer. Going one step further with it, it could be even easier to say skill based flexiblity can be concentrated to gains through weapon usage ala swg style as well where training with your hands gave you unarmed xp only and with a staff gave you polearm experience only, a sword fencer, a 2h sword 2 hand sword experience only.
XP-In short class based system lend more towards a steady treadmill xp gain across all types of experience whether your fighting with a sword or hands or a mace its mostly based on the level of mob that your killing. Whereas with skills based system like I mentioned above could be gained through weapon usage or a common skill used like (camping would give survival experience). Class systems aren't solely locked down to this of course of action but they tend to be, some games like wow give you higher skills in a proficiency way like sword as opposed to axe or mace but this would also depend on the design but xp would still be coming from the mob IMHO then from a weapon mostly.
Min/max-in class based system max level is max levels no matter what class you are it is quite easy to balance these classes against one another in a rock paper scissors method so that no one is normally underbalanced against another class. There is also aproblem though, in that if they are level 50 and you're level 35 they will kill you no matter what you have no chance,. It's the nature of class systems, however they're designed. Either one is doing less damage, more damage, or accuracy or dodge. In the skill system version of this it allows for gross imbalancing to occur so that you have the FOTM stacker templates but not everything has to be balanced all the time, and having say near similar skill sets with variances in skill levels normally means no major imbalances so that a crafter/bh template and a crafter fencer template would probably be fairly decent at both fighting but would depend more on tactics, strategy and player skill more. IMHO its a much better system for it although it has some draw backs we have decided to go this route and allow for skill usage to occur and actually incourage it because it adds spice to gameplay.
Possiblites-Level based system seem to be more treadmill in nature and for the most part except for possibly secondary skills or "speccing" every paly is going to be like every other pally and every wizard will be like every other wizard. In the skill system though, it is flexible enough that variations can occur and depending on design let's say of if all skills were allowed to be learned ala eve only time in game would be a factor which eventually gaps would be closed between casual and hardcore players. Or if skills points are a limiting factor (ala swg pre cu) then there are only so many "skills" you can buy with your points and no 2 people really have to be the same although many might be.
How bout this proposal, a skill system where skills are learned fairly easily and there are no levels. All skills can be mastered at some point and no point limitation system exists except during character creation. Life paths exists to sort of guide players on the journey to what they want to really play like (read play style) more quickly so they know which skills to concentrate on first. Oh and what if cloning is limitetd and permadeath could occur but you could start right back up as a "lethal" newbie character and player skills/strategy/tactics actually decide more then levels of an outcome? and not Level based.
See below link or clicky sig.
www.forceofarms.com
http://www.forceofarms.com/index.php
In your described system, everyone is eventually a clone of everyone else, because they will eventually all have the exact same skills (all of them).
Absinthe Lovers
In that case, you're talking about Rank 1 vs Rank 5. What's the difference? I haven't seen any definition of a skill system that says it can only have 5 Ranks.
Good points especially with the level 5 pitted against the level 50 thing. However, while I'm not a skill-based advocate necessarily I will say there are more drawbacks to level based systems than just what you have referred to.
In your described system, everyone is eventually a clone of everyone else, because they will eventually all have the exact same skills (all of them).
Absinthe Lovers
I forgot about COH, which is why I said I didn't know for sure on that one.
That would be true, if there was not permadeath. Nothing ventured nothing gained. So if someone is not willing to venture out to get the skills then most likely they will not be the same. Also, those that do venture out may not all venture in the same way (choosing the path less travelled) but those not ventureing at all will defintely not gain what those that seek fortune and fame may obtain, though ominously enough permadeath is the ultimate score settller, is it not? This also leads to actual hero's being born of the community and not created at character creation.
http://www.forceofarms.com/index.php
I think for skill vs class based mmorpgs it boils down to:
Will skill based systems solve problems in MMORPG community?
What problems problems are shared by both?
What new problems are created by skill based games?
Which system will get the most customers (ie not the hardcore types, but main streamers)?
What about a hybred approach? (repeat questions above)
In that case, you're talking about Rank 1 vs Rank 5. What's the difference? I haven't seen any definition of a skill system that says it can only have 5 Ranks. EVE uses that system as well as most White Wolf pen and paper RPGs. The max you can train a skill is to level 5. As such the amount of difference for any one skill is small therfore it remains possible for a relatively low character to still take down a Higher character.