I think that when developers focus on the ease of balance that is afforded by a class based system they sell us, the players, shorter than a midget on his knees.
They then attempt to pigeon hole what they feel is the most popular classes that people want to play and then focus on those to the exclusion of anything else.
This is boring, trite, and just plain not fun. It's like going to Baskin Robins and having a choice of only Vanilla, Choclate, or Strawberry. BOOOOOOOO-urns. I like Jamoca Almond Fudge
Another good analogy is if someone opened a pizzeria and didn't give the customers a choice of toppings. You had to get only the specialty pizzas they have on the menu without being able to alter the toppings. They wouldn't do too much business.
This fundemental choice is the epicenter that creates the whole macrocosm that is the game. Once you drop the class stone or the skill stone into the water the ripples reach out and touch every aspect of the game.
For instance, class based games by nature are heavily linear and leave no room for player creativity. They also tend to lend themselves to being conducive to an environment that unfolds just like the previous class based game. In essence, it's the same game as the last class based game, but with a different skin. Class based systems also tend to be game worlds in which the developers dictate to the players how to play the game, more so than a skill based system. But yeah it makes it's easier on the the dev team insofar as balance is concerned. But players aren't here to make the developers lives easier.
Conversely, a skill based system encourages players to be creative and flowers an environment conducive to unpredictability. Skill based systems also have the advantage of laying the ground work for the players themselves to create the game world insofar as their characters and their charcater's interactions with the game world and themselves is concerned.
Sure skill based systems are harder on the dev team insofar as balance and content development is concerned, but guess what:
Wah wah.
If developers keep taking the easy and safe way the genre will flounder and fall on it's face.
It's way past time for an MMORPG to come out that is based on having fun and not grinding, timesinks, and linear gameplay. Grinds and timesinks are diesinged for one thing only and that's to increase the shelf life of your paid subscription. It's lame, not at all fun, and not even close to being original.
If I want a single player experience I'll buy or rent a single player game for one of my many gaming systems or my PC. It's cheaper than paying a monthly fee... much cheaper.
Monthly fees are a whole other ball game with me. If developers want my cash, they better damn well give me something for it. The current climate has fostered laziness and inconsideration on many developers parts. I, for one, am more than sick to death of this.
This article is overly simplistic, misleading, and clearly biased.
First, it sets up a false dichotomy. There is no law of game design that states you must choose class- or skill-based, and that no other system is possible. I personally feel it would be a lot healthier for developers to think outside this particular box.
Also, the description of class-based systems is far from complete. There was absolutely no mention of character customization within a class-based system. The article makes it sound as if every member of a class is exactly the same. In a lot of games, this couldn't be further from the truth. In WoW (which I use as an example because most players are familiar with it), a Shadow Priest differs significantly from a Holy Priest. While both can fulfill the basic duties of a priest, the gameplay for each is a very different experience.
The article is misleading -- actually, it's outright false -- in saying that members of a certain class can never learn skills inherent in another class. Take City of Heroes for example. Healing is normally the purview of Defenders and Controllers, yet any character from any archetype can take a decent healing power (and even learn to rez) by selecting it as a Pool power. Likewise a Controller, typically weak on offense, can take fighting Pool powers to round himself out. (I know because I've done it, and it's a lot of fun.) You cannot completely disregard your class's intended function, but you can definitely make your character differ from the norm.
Ultimately, pure skill-based systems and pure class-based systems are both far too limiting. As with so many things in life, moderation is key. A well-designed hybrid is probably the best way to go -- something where a character's overall strengths and weaknesses are directed by a class-like framework, but where the player is free to sacrifice some of that focus in order to make up for some of the class's deficiencies that annoy him.
Right now, CoH and D&D are my favorite systems. Both are ultimately class-based, yet both allow the player a lot of customization without some of the horrible drawbacks of the skill-based model.
I beg to differ. This is a very myopic look at class based and skill based systems. Sure it gives you choices in your chosen class, but you're still pigeon holed by your class. You talk about thinking outside of the box so how about the people that want to create outside the box characters. The tank, damage dealer, healer, hybrid archetypes is not the answer to this no matter how much choice you get inside of the framework for each of those achetypes the gameplay will be exactly the same as the last class based system.
The tank tanks, the damage dealers deal damage, and the healers heal. This isn't fun anymore. It's not even challenging.
The heart of the matter is that the choice between class based systems and skill based systems is the epicenter and microcosm to the macrocosm of the game world.
You can't develop a skill based game like you would a class based game. The opposite is true as well. The gameplay has to fit.
I do agree that it would be nice to see something outside these 2 choices, but right now there's nothing even on the horizon that even remotely breaks away from these 2 schools of thought.
He made a slight mistake when he said that character advancement ends when you hit the lvl cap in a class based game. with Raiding as the endgame option, character advancement is through items. clearly someone whos been lvl cap for 3 days is no where near as advanced as someone who has been lvl cap for 6 months. this is a misconception that i had to comment on.
in UO the original skill based game character advancement did in fact end when you were 7x. all you had to do was equip your character run out and play.
im fairly certain that his comment on balancing skills was also complete bs. you would have way less attack skills in a game than you would have classes. in class based games you dont only have to balance classes, but also the items that people will aquire at end game. i played a warrior in WoW and saw nerf after nerf because of the new items that would come out with every patch which in turn increased their damage by so much it had to constantly be pulled back.
I have to say that I've always been a fan of skill-based games.
However, that’s only because Devs don't typically take advantage of the class based system like they should.
Class based systems don't need to be ultra rigid and strict systems where you can never explore new skills or try new things. Classes should be a suggestion not a COMMAND. If you see some guy in the Soldier class running around, you can probably assume he’s good with some kind of weapon and has decent HP. He might however have dabbled into healing magic and could be a good ranged fighter too.
If they make a game where at character creation you pick a class where you get either natural bonuses to learning class appropriate skills or default skill sets that you can branch out of later (preferably earlier) on in the game play you give the player a good balance of two things: freedom and direction.
.....................................
...but time flows like a river...
...and history repeats...
-Leader of "The Fighting Irish" in DAoC on Hib/Kay-
Excellent article. Pure skill based is the way to go because it puts control in the hands of the player.
I'll outline my reasoning:
Classes & Levels (the bad)-
1) Ruins open pvp. A Level 1 player has absolutely no chance against a Level 34 player. It's not fun being in a fight you have absolutely no chance in winning. Sure, maybe I would never have a chance anyway against 5 players (5v1) but at least that makes a lot more sense
2) Restricts the player to a specific role. The Developer has confined players to "their" vision of how a player works. This is good in a way because if I recruit a priest I "know" he will have a heal spell. So read below how a skill system can encompass this role play and do it better. The main issue with this though is that this robs the player of having the freedom to design their toon to fit their playstyle. Also, the less choices these systems have- the more you resemble other toons in your profession which ruins the uniqueness each avatar should have in an MMO. In some loot based, class games many players from the same profession wear the same armor which is not good
3) Like the author says- Class systems are forcing players to make a decision before they even play the game! Also, this really is just a serious timesink because if I decide I dont like my class I have to reroll. In some MMOs (like City of Heroes) it gets so bad if I pick the wrong power I am forever screwed. I have seen lowbies in that game delete their entire toon and restart.
4) Not very realistic limiting a player to a specific set of skills. Also, Class systems tend to be way too rigid. In many you cant drop undesired powers and if you can- most MMOs will charge you money or respecs wil be limited
Skills (the good points and solutions to the bad):
1) There is no end game. I can always strive to build my perfect character and integrate all the skills I want. The Devs can always simply add more skills and I ahve the freedom to grab them. This is what I do in Guild Wars. I created maxed out pvp toon and simply unlock the skills I want.
2) You can still promote roleplay and limit the skills by having templates (set number of skills allowed).
3) Puts control into the hands of the player. Players will constantly seek the best builds and if the skills are pretty well balanced players can entertain themselves indefinetly. This is because skill based systems have INFINITE variety of powerful combos. So yes that could be a little more work to balance out but you place limits on this if you use a system akin to FURY (pvp oriented MMO).
4) Much higher quality PvP. Now a newbie has a fighting chance against a veteran. The vet should still win of course if he has more skills and more experience using his build. This means good open pvp is a lot more achieveable in this setting.
5) Lots more realistic. It makes no sense whatsoever that a warrior cant pickup a wand, use it, and start learning how to spellcraft (become a mage). Just like real life I can always study and learn new skills
6) If a person equips a lot of healing skills they could be labeled "Healer" this way when people form groups and they seek out certain roles they will get it. Players will no longer have to worry bout not getting teams because they cant heal or provide support. If you learn those skills at some point, you can provide that required role!
7) Players customize their skills to what they enjoy doing. If you want, you could give players all the base skills they need and the more they use that power, the stronger it gets -OR- the more points you accumulate in their area allowing players to unlock other skills
8) Now you can ALWAYS play with your friends! Dont you hate it when in a level/class based MMO your buddy gets far ahead of you? There is no such elitism in a skill based MMO- you can always play with your friends. You wont have to play catchup or grind just to hang out with your pals. Now I realize some level based MMOs have sidekicking (like City of Heroes). However, in CoX lowbies still get dissed because they lack critical skills. In a skill based MMO- players should have the freedom to learn essential skills at anytime.
Personally I prefer Skill-based over Class/Level based. And my reason is simple - diversity in roles.
Yes, Class/Level based will be easier to balance compare to Skill-based, and that you have a clear role in what you want to do. But I like it when I choose what I want to do, and is able to change/adapt through the skill system. Class/Level based doesn't offter much of adaptability in this area.
As for the mention to XP... same as anything, it's a time-sink. It's there so you'll have to work for the class level/skill that you want. And XP is not necessary just for class/level. It's up to the developer in how to make it happen.
In the end, it all comes down to play style. I like the idea of open role and that no need for specific "class" to fill a role (i.e. tank/dps/heal ...). Some may agree with me, some may not, but I wish we get to see more skill-based MMORPG in the future.
5) Lots more realistic. It makes no sense whatsoever that a warrior cant pickup a wand, use it, and start learning how to spellcraft (become a mage). Just like real life I can always study and learn new skills
I dont think skill systems are more realistic, if you were a veteran swordsman and wanted to start casting magic you might have some very "real" reasons for not being able to do so. For example, you might have suffered a few too many blows to the head and therefore not as bright as someone who has nurtured their brain for a long period of time through constant study.
I personally feel that although skill systems can be fun and definitely let you explore everything a game has to offer, either everyone ends up wanting / getting everything, or people gather towards the same skills as they create "best build". I prefer hybrid systems, i know generally I enjoy being a melee fighter and so will always gravitate towards that, however i do think i should also be able to level sub jobs (much more diverse imo than "class trees" ala WoW) and through practise also learn non-combat related skills. Letting the sub-job be changed freely like in FFXI .
Another few things that would help diversification would be character creation and continued modification of the look of your avatar. I think that most games (at release especially) dont have enough classes to be able to satisfy everyones desired "play style". Although it is always going to be impossible to cover everyones play style in a class based system, it would be a definite improvement to have more choice.
Summing up this fairly aimless ramble: IMO choice is good, restrictions and limits (but not complete dead ends) i beileve are actually more realisitic.
I am another one who prefers the skill-based system, in fact I prefer skill-based, sandbox style games.
This is probably due to (Pre-CU) SWG being my first MMO. I can only play class-based, linear MMO's for so long before I am completely and utterly bored out of my mind. All of the class-based games that I have played, I have either played to level cap, or not even that far and then I'm gone.
Raiding for better 'gear' holds absolutely NO attraction for me whatsoever. Runnning the same instances over and over to possibly get an uber item that the other 4 players that are your class in the raid group want also - no thanks, I would rather stick hot needles in my eyes. Endgame PvP is pretty much pointless in linear class-based games without the 'uber gear' that you get from raiding as it is so much better than the stuff available to non-raiders. Hence, why in linear, class-based games I am off as soon as I hit level cap, thats if I am not bored to death beforehand.
I am actually going to stop buying and subscribing to linear, class-based MMO's as for me it is a waste of money and time. I cant get 'hooked' into my character and the game world the same way that I did with SWG and to a lesser extent Ryzom. So, for me it is basically SANDBOX and SKILL-BASED or nothing.
P.S. Eagerly awaiting Fallen Earth for the above mentioned reasons.
MMORPG History: Playing - EVE Online. Played (Retired) - AO, SWG, MxO, WoW, RFO, SoR, CoX, EQ2, GW, L2, Vanguard, LotRO, AoC, TCoS, Aion. Favourite MMO - Pre-CU SWG, 3 Years, 4 Accounts, 2 Pre-CU Jedi (1 Pre-9). Awaiting - Star Wars: The Old Republic, The Secret World, Earthrise.
5) Lots more realistic. It makes no sense whatsoever that a warrior cant pickup a wand, use it, and start learning how to spellcraft (become a mage). Just like real life I can always study and learn new skills
I dont think skill systems are more realistic, if you were a veteran swordsman and wanted to start casting magic you might have some very "real" reasons for not being able to do so. For example, you might have suffered a few too many blows to the head and therefore not as bright as someone who has nurtured their brain for a long period of time through constant study.
I personally feel that although skill systems can be fun and definitely let you explore everything a game has to offer, either everyone ends up wanting / getting everything, or people gather towards the same skills as they create "best build". I prefer hybrid systems, i know generally I enjoy being a melee fighter and so will always gravitate towards that, however i do think i should also be able to level sub jobs (much more diverse imo than "class trees" ala WoW) and through practise also learn non-combat related skills. Letting the sub-job be changed freely like in FFXI .
Another few things that would help diversification would be character creation and continued modification of the look of your avatar. I think that most games (at release especially) dont have enough classes to be able to satisfy everyones desired "play style". Although it is always going to be impossible to cover everyones play style in a class based system, it would be a definite improvement to have more choice.
Summing up this fairly aimless ramble: IMO choice is good, restrictions and limits (but not complete dead ends) i beileve are actually more realisitic.
in class based systems people min/max as well that has nothing to do with skill based systems. Only difference is that they reroll the FOTM (I know because I've done it plenty). That's no reaosn at all to diss a skill based system not in the least. If your game is -balanced- I stress this again, then you wont have FOTM period. Checkout Guild Wars please- I see new builds being created in that game all the time. If everyone is rolling the same build -again- I want to stress thats because that game is ran by crappy game designers period.
Try again
And I'm sorry even a stupid, retarded warrior can still pickup a wand and try to cast spells. You cant ever justify to me why in the hell cant a warrior try to pickup new skills I'm not buying it.
im not going to read everyones post because as usual people are flaming just because they can. but heres what you have to look at with the two systems. i would say what kind of game do they want, one that is more casual or hardcore. i say this because when i played swg near release and going forward, it was a hardcore game. you had to figure out what YOU wanted to do. there was little to know direction that you had to go to advance in the game. this was both a blessing and a curse because you could try anything you wanted but if you didnt commit yourself you were mediocre in everything.
now take wow. its set up so there is a direct path up every class and into every new zone. this is perfect for your casual gamers to have a roadmap to find their way. there were some progressing story arcs in swg but they werent the main part of the quest system.
so really how much freedom you give your players kind of determines the type of audience your going to have. balancing everything out also becomes a major challenge, but thats why they have the tough jobs making the games, and we sit here and second guess everything they do. you cant make everyone happy, and thats what people need to understand.
I would like to add an idea that marries the best of both systems:
Using a skill based system, give the player titles to select as various skill levels (and combinations thereof) are reached. These titles would give an indication of what class the player considers themselves to be at a given point in time, and how powerful they are. This would make grouping easier.
The Saga of Ryzom implements the above and I have a little story for you absed on this system:
In a pick up group we found some mobs that were challenging for us but realised that we did not have a healer. I had to admit that my healing skills were actually better than my melee ones that I wanted to use and so I filled the healer role. After some fighting the 'tank' wondered why he was running out of stam and asked me to heal that. I didn't know that this guy was actually an even better healer than me (the cheeky git) and he told me what skill to use and where to get it so that I could better support tanks. Interesting eh.
Just wanted to add in a skill based game you can easily lead gamers by their nose if they need that. This can be done by sending them to 'mentors' and 'academies'. By going through some lessons you can guide players along their desired paths. In Crackdown (skill based, sandbox coop game)- its really easy even for a 5 year old to focus on the attributes they want. There's a narrator and a lot of visual queues. By jumping around the city and collecting orbs you can improve your jumping. By doing races you improve driving. By tossing around the bad guys you improve your strength. It's really, really very simple. And if gamers need 'goals' well that can easily be provided via dynamic content or some sort of quest
Contrary to most of the posters here, I'm actually in favor of a class based system much more than a skill based system for several different reasons.
I was discussing with a friend the other day the idea of a dynamic MMO that actually had time advance through the course of the game life, with new technology appearing at different intervals, and one of the sticking points we had was this very discussion of class versus skill. As a note, I'll use two MMOs as examples, as they are the two that we have both played extensively in common, those being Entropia which is entirely skill based, and WoW which obviously is not. To sum up some of our arguments:
For many MMO players, particularly the ones that frequent message boards and get involved in discussions on the mechanics of MMOs, a skill based system caters to their desire for a lengthy, involved character process. However, for those people who haven't played an MMO before, or are just "casual" players, a skill based system tends to alienate them from the very beginning, leading to an immediate shrinking of the player base.
As an example, Entropia is a game that has no starting classes, and experience is seperate for each particular skill. Much as the original article stated, in Entropia if you want to have a high sword skill, you buy a sword and hack away. Classes in Entropia are more of a marker of progress rather than a means to grant you additional abilities. For myself, when I started this was entirely frustrating. In a new MMO, with no prior knowledge, I ended up wasting a lot of time and money before I was able to settle into something to do. In total, probably 10-15 hours just figuring out what skills I wanted to level up.
Offsetting this was the fact that I was able to just stop doing the things I didn't have an interest in and start doing the things I liked, without starting over and losing any of my progress or loot.
In WoW, not liking my class was generally known within the first ten levels, and while that might take 8 hours, I did have a general idea where I wanted to go, so I only made 2 or 3 characters before settling on my final toon. For this, I think it only took me about 6 hours to decide.
Obviously my experiences might not be typical of all gamers, but I have a hard time thinking that new (as in new to MMOs all together) players would have a fun time starting a game without any direction at all. EQ2 proved this in a way, with their original Archtype system. When the archtype system was abolished, the reason given was that player feedback indicated that nearly everyone who played already knew what class they wanted to play, and most of the complaints about the system were about not getting to play your "real class" soon enough.
Balance is another issue that's infinitely more complex on a skill based system than a class based system. And generally it turns out much worse for a skill system.
Take the swordsman and adventurer example a previous poster used. When creating the mobs for a certain zone, do the developers cater to the swordsman, making the adventurer struggle to defeat any of them there, or do they cater to the adventurer and give the swordsman a ridiculously easy time? It's really a tough call, and leaves players unsatisfied, no matter what the developer chooses to do.
My friend refuted this by saying that of course someone who specializes will have an easier time advancing to the higher difficulties. (He actually used levels, but isn't the idea of a pure skill system that you don't really need levels?) The swordsman, however, would only experience a small fraction of the actual game, as they'd miss out on all the quests/zones/events that cater to other skills. The adventurer, while progressing slower in the areas overlap the swordsman, would have a much broader experience of the game.
My feeling is that players would get pushed into classes anyway in this kind of system, particularly for group or raid style content. Top end guilds would only take players that had the max skill in their respective roles, the tank would have to have max defense and a max weapon skill, the healer would have to have maxed out their respective healing skill, and so on. Anyone who tried a bit of everything would get left behind so fast that they'd never really catch up. Something like what happened with EQ AAs would occur, where if you didn't have certain AAs you were pretty much ignored.
In a class system, these problems don't exist so much, as everyone is pretty much advancing at near the same rate. With everyone being specialized from the start, developers know exactly what their capabilities are at any given point in a character's life and the content can be designed around that.
Now, by advocating a class system, I'm not advocating for every character of a role to be exactly alike. WoW's talent tree system falls well short of the mark in my opinion. But I do think that a nuker should be a nuker from the outset, and a nuker at the end. Maybe the path they take and the skills/spells/abilities they use are different, but their role should already be defined.
5) Lots more realistic. It makes no sense whatsoever that a warrior cant pickup a wand, use it, and start learning how to spellcraft (become a mage). Just like real life I can always study and learn new skills
I dont think skill systems are more realistic, if you were a veteran swordsman and wanted to start casting magic you might have some very "real" reasons for not being able to do so. For example, you might have suffered a few too many blows to the head and therefore not as bright as someone who has nurtured their brain for a long period of time through constant study.
I personally feel that although skill systems can be fun and definitely let you explore everything a game has to offer, either everyone ends up wanting / getting everything, or people gather towards the same skills as they create "best build". I prefer hybrid systems, i know generally I enjoy being a melee fighter and so will always gravitate towards that, however i do think i should also be able to level sub jobs (much more diverse imo than "class trees" ala WoW) and through practise also learn non-combat related skills. Letting the sub-job be changed freely like in FFXI .
Another few things that would help diversification would be character creation and continued modification of the look of your avatar. I think that most games (at release especially) dont have enough classes to be able to satisfy everyones desired "play style". Although it is always going to be impossible to cover everyones play style in a class based system, it would be a definite improvement to have more choice.
Summing up this fairly aimless ramble: IMO choice is good, restrictions and limits (but not complete dead ends) i beileve are actually more realisitic.
in class based systems people min/max as well that has nothing to do with skill based systems. Only difference is that they reroll the FOTM (I know because I've done it plenty). That's no reaosn at all to diss a skill based system not in the least. If your game is -balanced- I stress this again, then you wont have FOTM period. Checkout Guild Wars please- I see new builds being created in that game all the time. If everyone is rolling the same build -again- I want to stress thats because that game is ran by crappy game designers period.
Try again
And I'm sorry even a stupid, retarded warrior can still pickup a wand and try to cast spells. You cant ever justify to me why in the hell cant a warrior try to pickup new skills I'm not buying it.
Yeah, I know min / maxing goes on in both types i guess some people will always want their character to be the best. And you are right, rerolling does suck, which is why i like the idea of being able to learn and change sub jobs and secondary skill sets to have a more varied experience. The flexability of the GW skill set shows my point that class systems with this flexability not only work but are very popular.
Im not asking you to buy into the fact that he wouldnt be able to try. Im saying he would probably suck at it. Im my summary i put "restrictions... but not complete dead ends" meaning this exact concept... the warrior should be able to try (it really does bug me when you cant put on a bit of armour or equip a certain weapon) but i dont want him (or her - just watched Monty Pythons "Life of Brian", sorry ) to be great at it.
Looking through all the posts so far, i see a lot of Class/lvl vs Skill, and a few hybrids, but the way i see it, if you add race into the mix, then you clean up a lot of the badness.
first, base lvls on race and not on class.
second, have class only give you starting skills. For instance, if you start out as a warrior, you can choose one melee weapon skill (Axes, Swords, Maces, etc.) one Armor skill (cloth/light, leather/medium, mail/heavy) and a specialty skill (fury, two weapon fighting, etc). then use those skills as leveling up. then, as the lvl increases allow for more skills. On the question of changing class, if they change, they don't get all the benefits of starting at the beginning, and as they train the new class skills, their old ones decrease slowly to balance. Allowing players the chance to gather/craft in all professions is something that many craft specialists would love. Let them do it, but make it harder to increase skill with more skills.
In short, everything in the class and lvl/skill debate is about balance, and finding where it all fits in. Classes are a good limiter that keep noobs from creating spread out characters that are completely ineffective, but without skills, a game becomes a bore after a while.
Yeah, I agree with the hybrid thing. Matrix Online has something like that as well.
My thought's exactly...
I am also partial to how GuildWars and to a lesser degree CoX handles things. I clearly see hybrid systems the way of the future. Quite An increasing number are bored of the same old thing just repackaged in this generations pretty wrapper.
Also let's be honest here, the main reason class based systems are so popular are...
A) Class based systems are allot easier to balance
For lack of a more tasteful term... easier to dummy proof.
Don't believe me?
I often see posts on COH's boards on how bad their two Epic AT's (Peacebringers & Warshades) suck.
I then think to myself..*sigh* if they only knew. Then it came to me... those classes aren't cut and dry and this simply confuses people.
While PB's & WS's have excellent firepower, tanking abilities and CC you must execute properly to unlock their potential. Sadly enough not many are willing to do this.
People love the familiar and you all know the script , Tank, Heal, or CC. If you're foolish enough to not play one of The Holy Trinity you're pretty much expendable.
Regardless the amount of freedom and choice publishers / devs give what good is it if the MMO community doesn't embrace them?
I've played and enjoyed both, but the way they were done was critical to my enjoyment. As for class system, I've played City of Heroes and City of Villains. The classes make it easy to set up a very interdependent superhero team to go adventuring, and the team combat is really amazing.
It really helps that there is such a diversity of super powers to be chosen even within a given class. You get 2 sets of powers to choose from for starters. Even within these sets you have many options. For example I could be a blaster that shoots fire at people for my primary power set, or one that shoots arrows. For secondary power sets I can turn people into blocks of ice or take them out with high tech gadgets. There are about 5 primary power sets to choose from in once class, and 5 secondary power sets. So even within one class the diversity of powers that can be taken is really incredible, and you can really customize your virtual self.
What adds even more diversity is that at a certain level, you gain access to general pool powers. All classes can access these, and there are 10 power sets to choose from 0_o. That means even more customization. With this system I felt I get the benefits of team interdependence, and the benefits of character diversity.
What's also done well in this game I think is that I can have a bunch of alts. If I don't want to be a blaster that shoots arrows and freezes people, I can be someone with mind control powers and a phantom army to command on an alt. Also if I like a character I've been working on for a while, but want to "tweak" him, there are respec missions that allow me to rearrange my powers, and the respec missions are both repeatable and fun. I think there is a limit on the repeats though, which could be lifted if you ask me lol.
More on that, Cryptic makes providing new game content part of the subscription fee. My favourite hero to play maxed out his levels about 5 months ago, and he's still my favourite. I didn't do nearly half of the available story arcs on him yet, and am looking forward to the next content update coming soon, and featuring new content for high level players. This, in my view, is the class system done right.
As for skill system, I played and very much loved Star Wars Galaxies in its original form. If I wanted to play the horn in the band at the cantina, I learned to play the horn. If I wanted to get good with a rifle, I bought a rifle and practiced up. I could use my skill points as I saw fit, and the freedom was a huge part of the fun factor. Customization was great.
And yet, there were still mechanics built into the original game that leant themselves to player interdependence and team work. This occured in combat teams, but also in the original economy. Different combinations of skill sets established what resembled classes. Certain skill sets enabled you to function like a "tank" for example, or a "healer." Also, although you didn't have "levels" per se, you did have professional "ranks". I was a Master of Teras Kasi for example, and had some enjoyable duels with masters of other professions. Reaching the Master Level was a lot like a level cap, although I could trade in some skill points and begin working on something else anytime, which was awesome. In game content was set to the different profession ranks, so that wasn't too difficult either.
Honestly I enjoyed both systems, and can see that the system itself didn't really make the big difference. It was how the system was done. The class system needed to allow diversity and provide high level content as well as enhancing fun interdependence, and facilitating challenges of an appropriate difficulty level. The skill system needed to provide player interdependence and challenges of the appropriate skill level, while maximizing opportunities for diversity. My 2 cents ^_^
I guess I am like most here. I have enjoyed games more with skill systems over those classes greatly.
Mosty because the character is more my own. I like to feel like I am doing something unique and not another cookie cutter clone. When I play a mmo I want to feel like this is my own person, I am taking this person through a journey. I want him/her to look and act as an individual. The game that gives me the most options normally keeps my attention for longer and sucks me in.
Swg was my first skill based system game having come from daoc previously. What i loved about pre cu and pre nge, was 20 person groups. We could wear multi hats take on a position we wanted to play and have several skill sets where we could switch hats at any given time. It does not leave a healer having to heal all the time, but have different sets of skills depending on the situation.
Some of l the new mmoprgs coming out now and in near future are class base games. What this does is separate guilds from partying together unless some sort of apprentice system is in place. It isolates folks from grouping together, and really peanilizes the hard core from casual player.
With a skill base system, guilds could get guild groups together and say "Hey let's go here " and all go and all be a part of the gaming experaince. Day after cu hit and i heard for the first time ever in cnet was level 64 + looking for group at lok was a sad day. Little did i know that NGE would wipe away what I loved most about the game along with many proffesions too.
The next question to ask is what use or roles do new mmorpgs coming out have to fill? If all are a re do re make of all ready out there games, then what would be the reason for even trying it when you already have a guild, end game experaince and pals else where?
So while some of the soon to be mmorpgs coming out are following the golden ticket of classes leveling . What they might not realize, is just because they build it we might not come, simply because been there done that......What does a b c game do differently? Why should i leave current mmorpg?
I do think there is room for a well rounded class system game simply because the lack of current choices .
To be honest i skipped over a lot of what was written here, but from what i read the gist of it is Skill>Class.
To me class is better for a couple of reasons, although implemented poorly it can be much much worse causing the final product to be a horrible game no one would ever like to play (WoW)...
Basically from my own personal experience i think that most of the skills based systems that are around and successful today are at least slightly modeled after Ultima Online which in my humble opinion is the best implementation of a skill based system thus far. SWG was good but could be used to make the experience worse for some people and better for others, Eve i havnt had the pleasure to play but it sounds like a horrible grind to me. And at its core i believe that is what the skill based system's flaw is.. Sorry but having to grind out 100900203192031900912 swings of my sword to GM it is not a fun time in MMO land for me. And then if i want to raise my magic i have to cast 2392131290 spells 15000000 times each, no thanks.
It could work out well but i think many Developers today design games that people will have to play each character for 50-60-70+ hours to get to a level where you can be able to stand on your own two feet and enjoy the game fully for what you're there for, be that pvp or whatever else. If skill progression were fast enough in most games or things like afk-macroing were widely accepted Skill would far surpass class imo. I dont pay 15$ a month for a game that i wont even be able to enjoy for the first two months because im too busy grinding to level 40 where i can finally do the fun stuff.
Looking at the class based system i think there are a lot of pros. I think it gives you some level of diversity without allowing you to stray too far from the core goals of the build you're going after. It makes no sense for a mage to hit as hard as a warrior, or wear the best armor or anything else like that. I think that the main drawback of the class system is when you have too few classes to choose from. I.e. WoW.... Oh Snap, i can be any of 5 different things and depending on how i make my toon i can either be gimp, or just like everyone else. No thanks.
To be fun and successful i think you need a system that has a large amount of variety and a lower level of grinding. In a skill based system i think this requires you to remove most of the grind, because grind = no fun. And with a class system i think you need to increase the level of variety. Warrior/Healer/Mage is just no longer acceptable.
Take shadowbane for instance, not many people play anymore as its quite old but, 21 classes!! With that many classes there are literally 7-8 different ways you can do each job. Each allows for a different play style and you can even have a wide variety within each class. I'm not saying its the best game ever but honestly i think its the best implementation of any class based system i have ever played.
To conclude Class > Skill when you have a large amount of variety within the classes
and Skill > Class when advancement is fairly quick.
In either event a poorly made game will always be worse then a well made game despite design.
skill, in a sanboxed based environ. letem do what they want.
and as for "hoping" you get the skills to balance out, thats beyond easy, but most devs dont want to say it outloud. hopefully in the future someone will, right now no one pays me enough to give free answers.
i'm 43, retired, so time dont mean a thing. just deal with friends and the next interesting mmo, so devs, get to steppin.
can you smell that?!!...............there is nothing quite like it.....................the smell of troll in the morning............i love that smell.
From my personal point of view most games today are just single player online role playeing games. I dont see the point of having these huge masses of virtual land used for nothing more than a superfunhappyslide. I actually want to interact and change the landscape, to infulence others and be infulenced by them. Class system games generally are ristrictive to change. Even outside of role choice.
Class vs. Skill ?
What exactly do these terms mean anyway? As many have pointed out hybrid systems can be good. To be honest i enjoyed that aspect of WoW. Getting to level 10 and shaping my character a little. That thrill was short lived when i realised i have to complete another 10 quests or kill 34 kobolds, then travel to areas that i didnt want to. To play my character the way i had to.
To me what is realy at the bottom of this debate is not just about
class vs skill systems;
its also the XP system;
the PvP;
is it sandbox?;
linear;
Item oriented? etc.
I mean imagine WoW without the need to change areas every 10 levels. Or you could gain exp by dualing. Basicaly toggle with the variables.
Look at EvE. I like skill systems. I hate EvE. Why? Because although you can choose any skills you want there is infact a clever leveling system inside all that. Not to mention that fact that all the XP gains within those "skills" is time based. Which means that no matter how much you try you always going to be behind someone who joined earlier than you. Which is typically a description of a class based game. I did like the sand box, go anywhere, do anything attitude of EvE. But it wasnt what i was looking for.
Nobody is perfect.
No system is ever going to satisfy the entire gaming community. The fact the most of the people on the forum prefer skill system is not an example of how game developers got it all wrong. But rather a sign of the people who do not yet have a game that they are satisfied with. One day they would play a game they liked if only it existed. Otherwise they wouldnt be posting on these forums. Fanbois excluded.
Be like the lemur.
Lets use a metaphor to make it perfectly clear. Once upon a time lemurs moved onto madagascar. They thrived there and multiplied. Soon they found that there wasnt much food to go around. So they all split off into groups and founded their own communities based around their own food. Now there are many different species of lemurs that have their own distinct look and way of getting about. Developers are the lemurs, gamers are the food. Be like the lemur. If the gaming industry is to continue to grow it must make use of all available gaming communities(food). Dont compete with eachother over the same types of people who like the same games. If you do there will only be a high turnover of gaming companies.
I like the way Dragonrealms did the skill based system. Well, it was more of a hybrid.
First you joined a Profession (they called them guilds), then each level you had to learn certain things but you weren't limited to just those things.
For instance, for Paladin. You needed to learn 5 levels of an Armor, 2 levels of magic, 4 levels in a primary weapon and 2 levels in a secondary one. But you could also learn hiding, lockpicking, music, foraging, ect.
So while you knew a second level Paladin had at least 10 levels in an Armor, you didn't know if he was going to pick your pocket while you fought along side him.
For each level you gained points that you could put into different stats. Strength, Dex, ...you get the drift.
It worked out awesome. Hopefully when Simu comes out with HJ they employ this system.
Comments
I think that when developers focus on the ease of balance that is afforded by a class based system they sell us, the players, shorter than a midget on his knees.
They then attempt to pigeon hole what they feel is the most popular classes that people want to play and then focus on those to the exclusion of anything else.
This is boring, trite, and just plain not fun. It's like going to Baskin Robins and having a choice of only Vanilla, Choclate, or Strawberry. BOOOOOOOO-urns. I like Jamoca Almond Fudge
Another good analogy is if someone opened a pizzeria and didn't give the customers a choice of toppings. You had to get only the specialty pizzas they have on the menu without being able to alter the toppings. They wouldn't do too much business.
This fundemental choice is the epicenter that creates the whole macrocosm that is the game. Once you drop the class stone or the skill stone into the water the ripples reach out and touch every aspect of the game.
For instance, class based games by nature are heavily linear and leave no room for player creativity. They also tend to lend themselves to being conducive to an environment that unfolds just like the previous class based game. In essence, it's the same game as the last class based game, but with a different skin. Class based systems also tend to be game worlds in which the developers dictate to the players how to play the game, more so than a skill based system. But yeah it makes it's easier on the the dev team insofar as balance is concerned. But players aren't here to make the developers lives easier.
Conversely, a skill based system encourages players to be creative and flowers an environment conducive to unpredictability. Skill based systems also have the advantage of laying the ground work for the players themselves to create the game world insofar as their characters and their charcater's interactions with the game world and themselves is concerned.
Sure skill based systems are harder on the dev team insofar as balance and content development is concerned, but guess what:
Wah wah.
If developers keep taking the easy and safe way the genre will flounder and fall on it's face.
It's way past time for an MMORPG to come out that is based on having fun and not grinding, timesinks, and linear gameplay. Grinds and timesinks are diesinged for one thing only and that's to increase the shelf life of your paid subscription. It's lame, not at all fun, and not even close to being original.
If I want a single player experience I'll buy or rent a single player game for one of my many gaming systems or my PC. It's cheaper than paying a monthly fee... much cheaper.
Monthly fees are a whole other ball game with me. If developers want my cash, they better damn well give me something for it. The current climate has fostered laziness and inconsideration on many developers parts. I, for one, am more than sick to death of this.
I beg to differ. This is a very myopic look at class based and skill based systems. Sure it gives you choices in your chosen class, but you're still pigeon holed by your class. You talk about thinking outside of the box so how about the people that want to create outside the box characters. The tank, damage dealer, healer, hybrid archetypes is not the answer to this no matter how much choice you get inside of the framework for each of those achetypes the gameplay will be exactly the same as the last class based system.
The tank tanks, the damage dealers deal damage, and the healers heal. This isn't fun anymore. It's not even challenging.
The heart of the matter is that the choice between class based systems and skill based systems is the epicenter and microcosm to the macrocosm of the game world.
You can't develop a skill based game like you would a class based game. The opposite is true as well. The gameplay has to fit.
I do agree that it would be nice to see something outside these 2 choices, but right now there's nothing even on the horizon that even remotely breaks away from these 2 schools of thought.
in UO the original skill based game character advancement did in fact end when you were 7x. all you had to do was equip your character run out and play.
im fairly certain that his comment on balancing skills was also complete bs. you would have way less attack skills in a game than you would have classes. in class based games you dont only have to balance classes, but also the items that people will aquire at end game. i played a warrior in WoW and saw nerf after nerf because of the new items that would come out with every patch which in turn increased their damage by so much it had to constantly be pulled back.
I have to say that I've always been a fan of skill-based games.
However, that’s only because Devs don't typically take advantage of the class based system like they should.
Class based systems don't need to be ultra rigid and strict systems where you can never explore new skills or try new things. Classes should be a suggestion not a COMMAND. If you see some guy in the Soldier class running around, you can probably assume he’s good with some kind of weapon and has decent HP. He might however have dabbled into healing magic and could be a good ranged fighter too.
If they make a game where at character creation you pick a class where you get either natural bonuses to learning class appropriate skills or default skill sets that you can branch out of later (preferably earlier) on in the game play you give the player a good balance of two things: freedom and direction.
.....................................
...but time flows like a river...
...and history repeats...
-Leader of "The Fighting Irish" in DAoC on Hib/Kay-
Excellent article. Pure skill based is the way to go because it puts control in the hands of the player.
I'll outline my reasoning:
Classes & Levels (the bad)-
1) Ruins open pvp. A Level 1 player has absolutely no chance against a Level 34 player. It's not fun being in a fight you have absolutely no chance in winning. Sure, maybe I would never have a chance anyway against 5 players (5v1) but at least that makes a lot more sense
2) Restricts the player to a specific role. The Developer has confined players to "their" vision of how a player works. This is good in a way because if I recruit a priest I "know" he will have a heal spell. So read below how a skill system can encompass this role play and do it better. The main issue with this though is that this robs the player of having the freedom to design their toon to fit their playstyle. Also, the less choices these systems have- the more you resemble other toons in your profession which ruins the uniqueness each avatar should have in an MMO. In some loot based, class games many players from the same profession wear the same armor which is not good
3) Like the author says- Class systems are forcing players to make a decision before they even play the game! Also, this really is just a serious timesink because if I decide I dont like my class I have to reroll. In some MMOs (like City of Heroes) it gets so bad if I pick the wrong power I am forever screwed. I have seen lowbies in that game delete their entire toon and restart.
4) Not very realistic limiting a player to a specific set of skills. Also, Class systems tend to be way too rigid. In many you cant drop undesired powers and if you can- most MMOs will charge you money or respecs wil be limited
Skills (the good points and solutions to the bad):
1) There is no end game. I can always strive to build my perfect character and integrate all the skills I want. The Devs can always simply add more skills and I ahve the freedom to grab them. This is what I do in Guild Wars. I created maxed out pvp toon and simply unlock the skills I want.
2) You can still promote roleplay and limit the skills by having templates (set number of skills allowed).
3) Puts control into the hands of the player. Players will constantly seek the best builds and if the skills are pretty well balanced players can entertain themselves indefinetly. This is because skill based systems have INFINITE variety of powerful combos. So yes that could be a little more work to balance out but you place limits on this if you use a system akin to FURY (pvp oriented MMO).
4) Much higher quality PvP. Now a newbie has a fighting chance against a veteran. The vet should still win of course if he has more skills and more experience using his build. This means good open pvp is a lot more achieveable in this setting.
5) Lots more realistic. It makes no sense whatsoever that a warrior cant pickup a wand, use it, and start learning how to spellcraft (become a mage). Just like real life I can always study and learn new skills
6) If a person equips a lot of healing skills they could be labeled "Healer" this way when people form groups and they seek out certain roles they will get it. Players will no longer have to worry bout not getting teams because they cant heal or provide support. If you learn those skills at some point, you can provide that required role!
7) Players customize their skills to what they enjoy doing. If you want, you could give players all the base skills they need and the more they use that power, the stronger it gets -OR- the more points you accumulate in their area allowing players to unlock other skills
8) Now you can ALWAYS play with your friends! Dont you hate it when in a level/class based MMO your buddy gets far ahead of you? There is no such elitism in a skill based MMO- you can always play with your friends. You wont have to play catchup or grind just to hang out with your pals. Now I realize some level based MMOs have sidekicking (like City of Heroes). However, in CoX lowbies still get dissed because they lack critical skills. In a skill based MMO- players should have the freedom to learn essential skills at anytime.
Personally I prefer Skill-based over Class/Level based. And my reason is simple - diversity in roles.
Yes, Class/Level based will be easier to balance compare to Skill-based, and that you have a clear role in what you want to do. But I like it when I choose what I want to do, and is able to change/adapt through the skill system. Class/Level based doesn't offter much of adaptability in this area.
As for the mention to XP... same as anything, it's a time-sink. It's there so you'll have to work for the class level/skill that you want. And XP is not necessary just for class/level. It's up to the developer in how to make it happen.
In the end, it all comes down to play style. I like the idea of open role and that no need for specific "class" to fill a role (i.e. tank/dps/heal ...). Some may agree with me, some may not, but I wish we get to see more skill-based MMORPG in the future.
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
I personally feel that although skill systems can be fun and definitely let you explore everything a game has to offer, either everyone ends up wanting / getting everything, or people gather towards the same skills as they create "best build". I prefer hybrid systems, i know generally I enjoy being a melee fighter and so will always gravitate towards that, however i do think i should also be able to level sub jobs (much more diverse imo than "class trees" ala WoW) and through practise also learn non-combat related skills. Letting the sub-job be changed freely like in FFXI .
Another few things that would help diversification would be character creation and continued modification of the look of your avatar. I think that most games (at release especially) dont have enough classes to be able to satisfy everyones desired "play style". Although it is always going to be impossible to cover everyones play style in a class based system, it would be a definite improvement to have more choice.
Summing up this fairly aimless ramble: IMO choice is good, restrictions and limits (but not complete dead ends) i beileve are actually more realisitic.
I am another one who prefers the skill-based system, in fact I prefer skill-based, sandbox style games.
This is probably due to (Pre-CU) SWG being my first MMO. I can only play class-based, linear MMO's for so long before I am completely and utterly bored out of my mind. All of the class-based games that I have played, I have either played to level cap, or not even that far and then I'm gone.
Raiding for better 'gear' holds absolutely NO attraction for me whatsoever. Runnning the same instances over and over to possibly get an uber item that the other 4 players that are your class in the raid group want also - no thanks, I would rather stick hot needles in my eyes. Endgame PvP is pretty much pointless in linear class-based games without the 'uber gear' that you get from raiding as it is so much better than the stuff available to non-raiders. Hence, why in linear, class-based games I am off as soon as I hit level cap, thats if I am not bored to death beforehand.
I am actually going to stop buying and subscribing to linear, class-based MMO's as for me it is a waste of money and time. I cant get 'hooked' into my character and the game world the same way that I did with SWG and to a lesser extent Ryzom. So, for me it is basically SANDBOX and SKILL-BASED or nothing.
P.S. Eagerly awaiting Fallen Earth for the above mentioned reasons.
MMORPG History:
Playing - EVE Online.
Played (Retired) - AO, SWG, MxO, WoW, RFO, SoR, CoX, EQ2, GW, L2, Vanguard, LotRO, AoC, TCoS, Aion.
Favourite MMO - Pre-CU SWG, 3 Years, 4 Accounts, 2 Pre-CU Jedi (1 Pre-9).
Awaiting - Star Wars: The Old Republic, The Secret World, Earthrise.
I personally feel that although skill systems can be fun and definitely let you explore everything a game has to offer, either everyone ends up wanting / getting everything, or people gather towards the same skills as they create "best build". I prefer hybrid systems, i know generally I enjoy being a melee fighter and so will always gravitate towards that, however i do think i should also be able to level sub jobs (much more diverse imo than "class trees" ala WoW) and through practise also learn non-combat related skills. Letting the sub-job be changed freely like in FFXI .
Another few things that would help diversification would be character creation and continued modification of the look of your avatar. I think that most games (at release especially) dont have enough classes to be able to satisfy everyones desired "play style". Although it is always going to be impossible to cover everyones play style in a class based system, it would be a definite improvement to have more choice.
Summing up this fairly aimless ramble: IMO choice is good, restrictions and limits (but not complete dead ends) i beileve are actually more realisitic.
in class based systems people min/max as well that has nothing to do with skill based systems. Only difference is that they reroll the FOTM (I know because I've done it plenty). That's no reaosn at all to diss a skill based system not in the least. If your game is -balanced- I stress this again, then you wont have FOTM period. Checkout Guild Wars please- I see new builds being created in that game all the time. If everyone is rolling the same build -again- I want to stress thats because that game is ran by crappy game designers period.
Try again
And I'm sorry even a stupid, retarded warrior can still pickup a wand and try to cast spells. You cant ever justify to me why in the hell cant a warrior try to pickup new skills I'm not buying it.
now take wow. its set up so there is a direct path up every class and into every new zone. this is perfect for your casual gamers to have a roadmap to find their way. there were some progressing story arcs in swg but they werent the main part of the quest system.
so really how much freedom you give your players kind of determines the type of audience your going to have. balancing everything out also becomes a major challenge, but thats why they have the tough jobs making the games, and we sit here and second guess everything they do. you cant make everyone happy, and thats what people need to understand.
I would like to add an idea that marries the best of both systems:
Using a skill based system, give the player titles to select as various skill levels (and combinations thereof) are reached. These titles would give an indication of what class the player considers themselves to be at a given point in time, and how powerful they are. This would make grouping easier.
The Saga of Ryzom implements the above and I have a little story for you absed on this system:
In a pick up group we found some mobs that were challenging for us but realised that we did not have a healer. I had to admit that my healing skills were actually better than my melee ones that I wanted to use and so I filled the healer role. After some fighting the 'tank' wondered why he was running out of stam and asked me to heal that. I didn't know that this guy was actually an even better healer than me (the cheeky git) and he told me what skill to use and where to get it so that I could better support tanks. Interesting eh.
We have been stuck with the un-original class based lameness because it is too hard?
Come on... that is a terrible excuse. Suck it up and make a game that people WANT to play.
Skill - based progression ftw.
I was discussing with a friend the other day the idea of a dynamic MMO that actually had time advance through the course of the game life, with new technology appearing at different intervals, and one of the sticking points we had was this very discussion of class versus skill. As a note, I'll use two MMOs as examples, as they are the two that we have both played extensively in common, those being Entropia which is entirely skill based, and WoW which obviously is not. To sum up some of our arguments:
For many MMO players, particularly the ones that frequent message boards and get involved in discussions on the mechanics of MMOs, a skill based system caters to their desire for a lengthy, involved character process. However, for those people who haven't played an MMO before, or are just "casual" players, a skill based system tends to alienate them from the very beginning, leading to an immediate shrinking of the player base.
As an example, Entropia is a game that has no starting classes, and experience is seperate for each particular skill. Much as the original article stated, in Entropia if you want to have a high sword skill, you buy a sword and hack away. Classes in Entropia are more of a marker of progress rather than a means to grant you additional abilities. For myself, when I started this was entirely frustrating. In a new MMO, with no prior knowledge, I ended up wasting a lot of time and money before I was able to settle into something to do. In total, probably 10-15 hours just figuring out what skills I wanted to level up.
Offsetting this was the fact that I was able to just stop doing the things I didn't have an interest in and start doing the things I liked, without starting over and losing any of my progress or loot.
In WoW, not liking my class was generally known within the first ten levels, and while that might take 8 hours, I did have a general idea where I wanted to go, so I only made 2 or 3 characters before settling on my final toon. For this, I think it only took me about 6 hours to decide.
Obviously my experiences might not be typical of all gamers, but I have a hard time thinking that new (as in new to MMOs all together) players would have a fun time starting a game without any direction at all. EQ2 proved this in a way, with their original Archtype system. When the archtype system was abolished, the reason given was that player feedback indicated that nearly everyone who played already knew what class they wanted to play, and most of the complaints about the system were about not getting to play your "real class" soon enough.
Balance is another issue that's infinitely more complex on a skill based system than a class based system. And generally it turns out much worse for a skill system.
Take the swordsman and adventurer example a previous poster used. When creating the mobs for a certain zone, do the developers cater to the swordsman, making the adventurer struggle to defeat any of them there, or do they cater to the adventurer and give the swordsman a ridiculously easy time? It's really a tough call, and leaves players unsatisfied, no matter what the developer chooses to do.
My friend refuted this by saying that of course someone who specializes will have an easier time advancing to the higher difficulties. (He actually used levels, but isn't the idea of a pure skill system that you don't really need levels?) The swordsman, however, would only experience a small fraction of the actual game, as they'd miss out on all the quests/zones/events that cater to other skills. The adventurer, while progressing slower in the areas overlap the swordsman, would have a much broader experience of the game.
My feeling is that players would get pushed into classes anyway in this kind of system, particularly for group or raid style content. Top end guilds would only take players that had the max skill in their respective roles, the tank would have to have max defense and a max weapon skill, the healer would have to have maxed out their respective healing skill, and so on. Anyone who tried a bit of everything would get left behind so fast that they'd never really catch up. Something like what happened with EQ AAs would occur, where if you didn't have certain AAs you were pretty much ignored.
In a class system, these problems don't exist so much, as everyone is pretty much advancing at near the same rate. With everyone being specialized from the start, developers know exactly what their capabilities are at any given point in a character's life and the content can be designed around that.
Now, by advocating a class system, I'm not advocating for every character of a role to be exactly alike. WoW's talent tree system falls well short of the mark in my opinion. But I do think that a nuker should be a nuker from the outset, and a nuker at the end. Maybe the path they take and the skills/spells/abilities they use are different, but their role should already be defined.
I personally feel that although skill systems can be fun and definitely let you explore everything a game has to offer, either everyone ends up wanting / getting everything, or people gather towards the same skills as they create "best build". I prefer hybrid systems, i know generally I enjoy being a melee fighter and so will always gravitate towards that, however i do think i should also be able to level sub jobs (much more diverse imo than "class trees" ala WoW) and through practise also learn non-combat related skills. Letting the sub-job be changed freely like in FFXI .
Another few things that would help diversification would be character creation and continued modification of the look of your avatar. I think that most games (at release especially) dont have enough classes to be able to satisfy everyones desired "play style". Although it is always going to be impossible to cover everyones play style in a class based system, it would be a definite improvement to have more choice.
Summing up this fairly aimless ramble: IMO choice is good, restrictions and limits (but not complete dead ends) i beileve are actually more realisitic.
in class based systems people min/max as well that has nothing to do with skill based systems. Only difference is that they reroll the FOTM (I know because I've done it plenty). That's no reaosn at all to diss a skill based system not in the least. If your game is -balanced- I stress this again, then you wont have FOTM period. Checkout Guild Wars please- I see new builds being created in that game all the time. If everyone is rolling the same build -again- I want to stress thats because that game is ran by crappy game designers period.
Try again
And I'm sorry even a stupid, retarded warrior can still pickup a wand and try to cast spells. You cant ever justify to me why in the hell cant a warrior try to pickup new skills I'm not buying it.
Yeah, I know min / maxing goes on in both types i guess some people will always want their character to be the best. And you are right, rerolling does suck, which is why i like the idea of being able to learn and change sub jobs and secondary skill sets to have a more varied experience. The flexability of the GW skill set shows my point that class systems with this flexability not only work but are very popular.Im not asking you to buy into the fact that he wouldnt be able to try. Im saying he would probably suck at it. Im my summary i put "restrictions... but not complete dead ends" meaning this exact concept... the warrior should be able to try (it really does bug me when you cant put on a bit of armour or equip a certain weapon) but i dont want him (or her - just watched Monty Pythons "Life of Brian", sorry
Looking through all the posts so far, i see a lot of Class/lvl vs Skill, and a few hybrids, but the way i see it, if you add race into the mix, then you clean up a lot of the badness.
first, base lvls on race and not on class.
second, have class only give you starting skills. For instance, if you start out as a warrior, you can choose one melee weapon skill (Axes, Swords, Maces, etc.) one Armor skill (cloth/light, leather/medium, mail/heavy) and a specialty skill (fury, two weapon fighting, etc). then use those skills as leveling up. then, as the lvl increases allow for more skills. On the question of changing class, if they change, they don't get all the benefits of starting at the beginning, and as they train the new class skills, their old ones decrease slowly to balance. Allowing players the chance to gather/craft in all professions is something that many craft specialists would love. Let them do it, but make it harder to increase skill with more skills.
In short, everything in the class and lvl/skill debate is about balance, and finding where it all fits in. Classes are a good limiter that keep noobs from creating spread out characters that are completely ineffective, but without skills, a game becomes a bore after a while.
again, the key word in any system is BALANCE!!!!!
I am also partial to how GuildWars and to a lesser degree CoX handles things. I clearly see hybrid systems the way of the future. Quite An increasing number are bored of the same old thing just repackaged in this generations pretty wrapper.
Also let's be honest here, the main reason class based systems are so popular are...
A) Class based systems are allot easier to balance
Don't believe me?
I often see posts on COH's boards on how bad their two Epic AT's (Peacebringers & Warshades) suck.
I then think to myself..*sigh* if they only knew. Then it came to me... those classes aren't cut and dry and this simply confuses people.
While PB's & WS's have excellent firepower, tanking abilities and CC you must execute properly to unlock their potential. Sadly enough not many are willing to do this.
People love the familiar and you all know the script , Tank, Heal, or CC. If you're foolish enough to not play one of The Holy Trinity you're pretty much expendable.
Regardless the amount of freedom and choice publishers / devs give what good is it if the MMO community doesn't embrace them?
Dutchess Zarraa Voltayre
Reborn/Zero Sum/Ancient Legacy/Jagged Legion/Feared/Nuke & Pave.
Only game that could give a perfect skill/class mixer will never happen
Elder Scrolls Online
But Bethesda will never let it happen.
-Jive
I've played and enjoyed both, but the way they were done was critical to my enjoyment. As for class system, I've played City of Heroes and City of Villains. The classes make it easy to set up a very interdependent superhero team to go adventuring, and the team combat is really amazing.
It really helps that there is such a diversity of super powers to be chosen even within a given class. You get 2 sets of powers to choose from for starters. Even within these sets you have many options. For example I could be a blaster that shoots fire at people for my primary power set, or one that shoots arrows. For secondary power sets I can turn people into blocks of ice or take them out with high tech gadgets. There are about 5 primary power sets to choose from in once class, and 5 secondary power sets. So even within one class the diversity of powers that can be taken is really incredible, and you can really customize your virtual self.
What adds even more diversity is that at a certain level, you gain access to general pool powers. All classes can access these, and there are 10 power sets to choose from 0_o. That means even more customization. With this system I felt I get the benefits of team interdependence, and the benefits of character diversity.
What's also done well in this game I think is that I can have a bunch of alts. If I don't want to be a blaster that shoots arrows and freezes people, I can be someone with mind control powers and a phantom army to command on an alt. Also if I like a character I've been working on for a while, but want to "tweak" him, there are respec missions that allow me to rearrange my powers, and the respec missions are both repeatable and fun. I think there is a limit on the repeats though, which could be lifted if you ask me lol.
More on that, Cryptic makes providing new game content part of the subscription fee. My favourite hero to play maxed out his levels about 5 months ago, and he's still my favourite. I didn't do nearly half of the available story arcs on him yet, and am looking forward to the next content update coming soon, and featuring new content for high level players. This, in my view, is the class system done right.
As for skill system, I played and very much loved Star Wars Galaxies in its original form. If I wanted to play the horn in the band at the cantina, I learned to play the horn. If I wanted to get good with a rifle, I bought a rifle and practiced up. I could use my skill points as I saw fit, and the freedom was a huge part of the fun factor. Customization was great.
And yet, there were still mechanics built into the original game that leant themselves to player interdependence and team work. This occured in combat teams, but also in the original economy. Different combinations of skill sets established what resembled classes. Certain skill sets enabled you to function like a "tank" for example, or a "healer." Also, although you didn't have "levels" per se, you did have professional "ranks". I was a Master of Teras Kasi for example, and had some enjoyable duels with masters of other professions. Reaching the Master Level was a lot like a level cap, although I could trade in some skill points and begin working on something else anytime, which was awesome. In game content was set to the different profession ranks, so that wasn't too difficult either.
Honestly I enjoyed both systems, and can see that the system itself didn't really make the big difference. It was how the system was done. The class system needed to allow diversity and provide high level content as well as enhancing fun interdependence, and facilitating challenges of an appropriate difficulty level. The skill system needed to provide player interdependence and challenges of the appropriate skill level, while maximizing opportunities for diversity. My 2 cents ^_^
Arc
Mosty because the character is more my own. I like to feel like I am doing something unique and not another cookie cutter clone. When I play a mmo I want to feel like this is my own person, I am taking this person through a journey. I want him/her to look and act as an individual. The game that gives me the most options normally keeps my attention for longer and sucks me in.
Some of l the new mmoprgs coming out now and in near future are class base games. What this does is separate guilds from partying together unless some sort of apprentice system is in place. It isolates folks from grouping together, and really peanilizes the hard core from casual player.
With a skill base system, guilds could get guild groups together and say "Hey let's go here " and all go and all be a part of the gaming experaince. Day after cu hit and i heard for the first time ever in cnet was level 64 + looking for group at lok was a sad day. Little did i know that NGE would wipe away what I loved most about the game along with many proffesions too.
The next question to ask is what use or roles do new mmorpgs coming out have to fill? If all are a re do re make of all ready out there games, then what would be the reason for even trying it when you already have a guild, end game experaince and pals else where?
So while some of the soon to be mmorpgs coming out are following the golden ticket of classes leveling . What they might not realize, is just because they build it we might not come, simply because been there done that......What does a b c game do differently? Why should i leave current mmorpg?
I do think there is room for a well rounded class system game simply because the lack of current choices .
To me class is better for a couple of reasons, although implemented poorly it can be much much worse causing the final product to be a horrible game no one would ever like to play (WoW)...
Basically from my own personal experience i think that most of the skills based systems that are around and successful today are at least slightly modeled after Ultima Online which in my humble opinion is the best implementation of a skill based system thus far. SWG was good but could be used to make the experience worse for some people and better for others, Eve i havnt had the pleasure to play but it sounds like a horrible grind to me. And at its core i believe that is what the skill based system's flaw is.. Sorry but having to grind out 100900203192031900912 swings of my sword to GM it is not a fun time in MMO land for me. And then if i want to raise my magic i have to cast 2392131290 spells 15000000 times each, no thanks.
It could work out well but i think many Developers today design games that people will have to play each character for 50-60-70+ hours to get to a level where you can be able to stand on your own two feet and enjoy the game fully for what you're there for, be that pvp or whatever else. If skill progression were fast enough in most games or things like afk-macroing were widely accepted Skill would far surpass class imo. I dont pay 15$ a month for a game that i wont even be able to enjoy for the first two months because im too busy grinding to level 40 where i can finally do the fun stuff.
Looking at the class based system i think there are a lot of pros. I think it gives you some level of diversity without allowing you to stray too far from the core goals of the build you're going after. It makes no sense for a mage to hit as hard as a warrior, or wear the best armor or anything else like that. I think that the main drawback of the class system is when you have too few classes to choose from. I.e. WoW.... Oh Snap, i can be any of 5 different things and depending on how i make my toon i can either be gimp, or just like everyone else. No thanks.
To be fun and successful i think you need a system that has a large amount of variety and a lower level of grinding. In a skill based system i think this requires you to remove most of the grind, because grind = no fun. And with a class system i think you need to increase the level of variety. Warrior/Healer/Mage is just no longer acceptable.
Take shadowbane for instance, not many people play anymore as its quite old but, 21 classes!! With that many classes there are literally 7-8 different ways you can do each job. Each allows for a different play style and you can even have a wide variety within each class. I'm not saying its the best game ever but honestly i think its the best implementation of any class based system i have ever played.
To conclude Class > Skill when you have a large amount of variety within the classes
and Skill > Class when advancement is fairly quick.
In either event a poorly made game will always be worse then a well made game despite design.
skill, in a sanboxed based environ. letem do what they want.
and as for "hoping" you get the skills to balance out, thats beyond easy, but most devs dont want to say it outloud. hopefully in the future someone will, right now no one pays me enough to give free answers.
i'm 43, retired, so time dont mean a thing. just deal with friends and the next interesting mmo, so devs, get to steppin.
can you smell that?!!...............there is nothing quite like it.....................the smell of troll in the morning............i love that smell.
The State of MMORPG's MSPORPGs.
From my personal point of view most games today are just single player online role playeing games. I dont see the point of having these huge masses of virtual land used for nothing more than a superfunhappyslide. I actually want to interact and change the landscape, to infulence others and be infulenced by them. Class system games generally are ristrictive to change. Even outside of role choice.
Class vs. Skill ?
What exactly do these terms mean anyway? As many have pointed out hybrid systems can be good. To be honest i enjoyed that aspect of WoW. Getting to level 10 and shaping my character a little. That thrill was short lived when i realised i have to complete another 10 quests or kill 34 kobolds, then travel to areas that i didnt want to. To play my character the way i had to.
To me what is realy at the bottom of this debate is not just about
class vs skill systems;
its also the XP system;
the PvP;
is it sandbox?;
linear;
Item oriented? etc.
I mean imagine WoW without the need to change areas every 10 levels. Or you could gain exp by dualing. Basicaly toggle with the variables.
Look at EvE. I like skill systems. I hate EvE. Why? Because although you can choose any skills you want there is infact a clever leveling system inside all that. Not to mention that fact that all the XP gains within those "skills" is time based. Which means that no matter how much you try you always going to be behind someone who joined earlier than you. Which is typically a description of a class based game. I did like the sand box, go anywhere, do anything attitude of EvE. But it wasnt what i was looking for.
Nobody is perfect.
No system is ever going to satisfy the entire gaming community. The fact the most of the people on the forum prefer skill system is not an example of how game developers got it all wrong. But rather a sign of the people who do not yet have a game that they are satisfied with. One day they would play a game they liked if only it existed. Otherwise they wouldnt be posting on these forums. Fanbois excluded.
Be like the lemur.
Lets use a metaphor to make it perfectly clear. Once upon a time lemurs moved onto madagascar. They thrived there and multiplied. Soon they found that there wasnt much food to go around. So they all split off into groups and founded their own communities based around their own food. Now there are many different species of lemurs that have their own distinct look and way of getting about. Developers are the lemurs, gamers are the food. Be like the lemur. If the gaming industry is to continue to grow it must make use of all available gaming communities(food). Dont compete with eachother over the same types of people who like the same games. If you do there will only be a high turnover of gaming companies.
First you joined a Profession (they called them guilds), then each level you had to learn certain things but you weren't limited to just those things.
For instance, for Paladin. You needed to learn 5 levels of an Armor, 2 levels of magic, 4 levels in a primary weapon and 2 levels in a secondary one. But you could also learn hiding, lockpicking, music, foraging, ect.
So while you knew a second level Paladin had at least 10 levels in an Armor, you didn't know if he was going to pick your pocket while you fought along side him.
For each level you gained points that you could put into different stats. Strength, Dex, ...you get the drift.
It worked out awesome. Hopefully when Simu comes out with HJ they employ this system.