I dunno... I miss the days when you were expected to go out and kill stuff on your own instead of getting quested through everything level by level.
I think you are mixing up two issues. Certainly questing is an effort to add some interesting wrinkles and to guide players so as to avoid the tendency for killing everything that can be targeted. The greater issue is the requirement for constant repetition in the first place. Grinding refers not just to killing things, but to activities in crafting and harvesting as well. Quests can provide alternative directed goals, and can be more or less hand-holding with respect to helping players along.
I find that many players are not tolerant of any ambiguity or difficulty at all with respect to finding things. I see shouted requests all the time about where to find such-and-such or so-and-so, sometimes in spite of the fact that waypoints are given and the items or NPCs sought metaphorically "glow in the dark" with "look at me" graphical cues. What this means is that many players prefer the certainty of grinding along a steady and certain path to taking a chance on the undiscovered or unknown. I think this speaks to player motivation, which tends to be more strongly oriented toward achieving defined goals and surpassing other players than discovering things that few others have at the risk of achieving nothing at all. There are several more discussions capable of taking off from that point, so I'll leave it be.
Just to add my 2 cents, I think that if you want to get rid of the 'grind' then you have to get rid of what drives it, namely the entire focus of the game being on acquiring successively more powerful levels, skills, or loot. Most games, no matter what other features they have, mainly have one thing to do, and that is to kill mobs or run quests to acquire the xp or loot to be able to do the same thing against nastier mobs.
We have to say goodbye to this sort of thing if we ever want to see something different. If ever there could be a game where there was no such thing as a level 60 thief, but simply a guy with some training and skills and items that are not uber in any way, who tries to steal stuff using his basic skills and items and MAINLY his ability to assess situations, find an opening, and think on his feet. But of course what would the guy be stealing? There would have to be a real economy in place based on private player property in the larger context of player controlled political factions, etc. etc. etc.
In other words, a game where the goals were set by the players, opening up countless situations and things to do OTHER than grinding against mobs for arbitrary returns of xp and loot. If such things didn't exist, there would be no grid.
Fear not those that enjoy the grind and the shiny loot. There is NO shortage of such game mechanics, so I'm not sure why you'd even waste your time in a discussion about something different.
I agree with your point about players having to create situations, but I think the game should create the launching point for the players to do this. The reason is so that all players are on the same page, so they know what's possible to do in-game, and so they know how to do it.
Using your thief example, let's say the game made a market where there were NPC's and other players with stalls, and the items for sale were actually sitting on tables. Players can walk by and see what's for sale without having to click on the box-over-the-head deal, and have the real danger of their items being stolen. The thief has the real danger of being caught. (Now that I think about it, Fable did this exactly.) This scenario would give cause for players to hire a guard, or hire a bounty hunter, and maybe a crime and punishment system. It could lead to a lot of non-combat content.
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I dunno... I miss the days when you were expected to go out and kill stuff on your own instead of getting quested through everything level by level.
I think you are mixing up two issues. Certainly questing is an effort to add some interesting wrinkles and to guide players so as to avoid the tendency for killing everything that can be targeted. The greater issue is the requirement for constant repetition in the first place. Grinding refers not just to killing things, but to activities in crafting and harvesting as well. Quests can provide alternative directed goals, and can be more or less hand-holding with respect to helping players along.
I find that many players are not tolerant of any ambiguity or difficulty at all with respect to finding things. I see shouted requests all the time about where to find such-and-such or so-and-so, sometimes in spite of the fact that waypoints are given and the items or NPCs sought metaphorically "glow in the dark" with "look at me" graphical cues. What this means is that many players prefer the certainty of grinding along a steady and certain path to taking a chance on the undiscovered or unknown. I think this speaks to player motivation, which tends to be more strongly oriented toward achieving defined goals and surpassing other players than discovering things that few others have at the risk of achieving nothing at all. There are several more discussions capable of taking off from that point, so I'll leave it be.
You made a great point there. I wonder if those players prefer it that way or are so overexposed to that style of questing? Probably both. I also wonder if they would appreciate a more creative, interactive gameplay if given the choice.
(\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination!
People are choosing to quest in newer games because the quests generally offer more experience, but the quests in newer games are really tasks and they are a form of grinding. In newer game you just run thru these tasks ignoring the text because it really is unimportant since all the questgivers are easily identified by icons or glows, there is no problemsolving required since everything is spelled out in detail, and minimaps direct you where to go and whom to see.
In old school EQ1, killing mobs offered more experience than quests usually, and because of all the random rare spawns, there was value in hunting in the same zone for a long period of time. Periodically you would discover a new rare spawn or figure out placeholder triggers. There are still rare mobs in N Karana I never saw after 4 years of playing. That type of design made hunting interesting and less of a grind, because of the unexpected. It was like a real world and made the game immersive.
Well a "grind" is all relative really. To me, if you never played EQ1 in 99-00, then you have no concept of what "grinding" really means.
I'd agree with this, especially at 30, 35, 40, and 45 (and later, 59). L2 can approach that (or so I've heard).
I think grind is way too subjective, personally. It's become cliché. It's the buzzword used to describe anything a person doesn't like in a game. Like most buzzwords, it has become meaningless because it's used so often and in so many different ways in reference to so many different things. It's kinda like urban slang terms. Once one of them emerges from the mouth of a suburban soccer mom, it needs to be replaced. From hearing the term tossed around various forums, it seems to me that if the game isn't as "easy" as a WoW or Guild Wars, it's "a grind" which to me is asinine.
I've found that I'm pretty much immune to so-called 'grinds'. If the end goal is worth the effort (to me), I'll jump through the hoops necessary to get it. My problem arises from those games who incorporate what many people consider grinds....with no payoff. Like, what's the real motivation to get to 50 in City of Heroes? It's the end ("gratz! You win! Now roll another character and do it again!"), unless Zergidon....err Hamidon is something worth 'grinding' for (and that's attainable before 50).
I think it's problematic when 'the endgame' is truly 'the end of the game'.
SWG was mentioned so I need to add that Pre-NGE Galaxies was kinda dependent on Grinding. It had multiple xp pools to feed the varied skill based professions. Scouting xp was different from Pistol xp, though earned simularly. Why was grinding acceptable (to a degree) in SWG? Large groups made for interesting conversations. The odds were high for it with groups up to 20 players. Most of the time, the Loot/Resources gathered had a value and there was always a chance to score something useful (i.e. Legedary Weapons). The intensity to grind was high also when xp was traded for Jedi xp during the Village Unlock period for Jedi. I found grinding most fun when there was a quest goal attached such as the Padwan or Knight Trials. The only grind in SWG that about killed me was the Crafting Grind. Grinding for (Force Sensitive) Master Crafter just about did me in. Why was this tolarble? These were forms of Achievement that were very rewarding for gameplay. This would still be true if Jedi was not a starting profession and a alpha class in the NGE. ...
You forgot to mention the jedi grind itself.. the mother of all grinds. (A finished jedi template was about 11millon xp) For me in PreCU days it was worth it even tho it was hard as hell, it was the path leading to the alpha class and most respected by my opinion. U had to stay "hidden" from NPC and Players or else ud get on the bounty hunter terminal and if killed ud loose up to a weeks worth of grinding xp. At preCU launch i lost 2 million jedi xp cuz of bug when gaining only about 500-1000xp i per kill it kinda hurt a bit.
Alas playing as Bounty Hunter myself most of the time I had it coming
Wumi - PreCU Bloodfin
No disrespet to the Elder Jedi. Yes, that was a very mounumental grind.
An interesting condition created by the early Jedi/BH TEF system, I had friends in a city that set traps for BH hunting thier Jedi. They were, of course, on ventrilo and were based on Dantooine to grind. If one of thier Jedi was under attack he would run to their Cantina which was a safe zone. When the BH arrived in town, the whole guild would pour out and jump him. Standard attack was ban, kill the vehical, then kill him. The town was in a very isolated section of the planet forcing the BH to walk 1000s meters to the starport. As I understand, this tatic was the first condition that ended up nerfing the TEF to just the Jedi and BH involved.
Most feel that forums carebears killed the TEF. Not really true. TEF was killed with those Asian regulations against PVP. Big MMO companies could not afford to alienate themselves from the East Asian markets if they didn't change thier games. TEF may have been real fun but it was just not cost friendly for a big company. WOW's population is about 3 million Western subs and 4-5 million in the East (Asia). Think how that would have impact Blizzard if WOW had a TEF that they removed. Ah, TEF = Temporay Enemy Flag for PVP combat.
Comments
I think you are mixing up two issues. Certainly questing is an effort to add some interesting wrinkles and to guide players so as to avoid the tendency for killing everything that can be targeted. The greater issue is the requirement for constant repetition in the first place. Grinding refers not just to killing things, but to activities in crafting and harvesting as well. Quests can provide alternative directed goals, and can be more or less hand-holding with respect to helping players along.
I find that many players are not tolerant of any ambiguity or difficulty at all with respect to finding things. I see shouted requests all the time about where to find such-and-such or so-and-so, sometimes in spite of the fact that waypoints are given and the items or NPCs sought metaphorically "glow in the dark" with "look at me" graphical cues. What this means is that many players prefer the certainty of grinding along a steady and certain path to taking a chance on the undiscovered or unknown. I think this speaks to player motivation, which tends to be more strongly oriented toward achieving defined goals and surpassing other players than discovering things that few others have at the risk of achieving nothing at all. There are several more discussions capable of taking off from that point, so I'll leave it be.
I agree with your point about players having to create situations, but I think the game should create the launching point for the players to do this. The reason is so that all players are on the same page, so they know what's possible to do in-game, and so they know how to do it.
Using your thief example, let's say the game made a market where there were NPC's and other players with stalls, and the items for sale were actually sitting on tables. Players can walk by and see what's for sale without having to click on the box-over-the-head deal, and have the real danger of their items being stolen. The thief has the real danger of being caught. (Now that I think about it, Fable did this exactly.) This scenario would give cause for players to hire a guard, or hire a bounty hunter, and maybe a crime and punishment system. It could lead to a lot of non-combat content.
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination!
I think you are mixing up two issues. Certainly questing is an effort to add some interesting wrinkles and to guide players so as to avoid the tendency for killing everything that can be targeted. The greater issue is the requirement for constant repetition in the first place. Grinding refers not just to killing things, but to activities in crafting and harvesting as well. Quests can provide alternative directed goals, and can be more or less hand-holding with respect to helping players along.
I find that many players are not tolerant of any ambiguity or difficulty at all with respect to finding things. I see shouted requests all the time about where to find such-and-such or so-and-so, sometimes in spite of the fact that waypoints are given and the items or NPCs sought metaphorically "glow in the dark" with "look at me" graphical cues. What this means is that many players prefer the certainty of grinding along a steady and certain path to taking a chance on the undiscovered or unknown. I think this speaks to player motivation, which tends to be more strongly oriented toward achieving defined goals and surpassing other players than discovering things that few others have at the risk of achieving nothing at all. There are several more discussions capable of taking off from that point, so I'll leave it be.
You made a great point there. I wonder if those players prefer it that way or are so overexposed to that style of questing? Probably both. I also wonder if they would appreciate a more creative, interactive gameplay if given the choice.
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination!
People are choosing to quest in newer games because the quests generally offer more experience, but the quests in newer games are really tasks and they are a form of grinding. In newer game you just run thru these tasks ignoring the text because it really is unimportant since all the questgivers are easily identified by icons or glows, there is no problemsolving required since everything is spelled out in detail, and minimaps direct you where to go and whom to see.
In old school EQ1, killing mobs offered more experience than quests usually, and because of all the random rare spawns, there was value in hunting in the same zone for a long period of time. Periodically you would discover a new rare spawn or figure out placeholder triggers. There are still rare mobs in N Karana I never saw after 4 years of playing. That type of design made hunting interesting and less of a grind, because of the unexpected. It was like a real world and made the game immersive.
I'd agree with this, especially at 30, 35, 40, and 45 (and later, 59). L2 can approach that (or so I've heard).
I think grind is way too subjective, personally. It's become cliché. It's the buzzword used to describe anything a person doesn't like in a game. Like most buzzwords, it has become meaningless because it's used so often and in so many different ways in reference to so many different things. It's kinda like urban slang terms. Once one of them emerges from the mouth of a suburban soccer mom, it needs to be replaced. From hearing the term tossed around various forums, it seems to me that if the game isn't as "easy" as a WoW or Guild Wars, it's "a grind" which to me is asinine.
I've found that I'm pretty much immune to so-called 'grinds'. If the end goal is worth the effort (to me), I'll jump through the hoops necessary to get it. My problem arises from those games who incorporate what many people consider grinds....with no payoff. Like, what's the real motivation to get to 50 in City of Heroes? It's the end ("gratz! You win! Now roll another character and do it again!"), unless Zergidon....err Hamidon is something worth 'grinding' for (and that's attainable before 50).
I think it's problematic when 'the endgame' is truly 'the end of the game'.
You forgot to mention the jedi grind itself.. the mother of all grinds. (A finished jedi template was about 11millon xp) For me in PreCU days it was worth it even tho it was hard as hell, it was the path leading to the alpha class and most respected by my opinion. U had to stay "hidden" from NPC and Players or else ud get on the bounty hunter terminal and if killed ud loose up to a weeks worth of grinding xp. At preCU launch i lost 2 million jedi xp cuz of bug when gaining only about 500-1000xp i per kill it kinda hurt a bit.
Alas playing as Bounty Hunter myself most of the time I had it coming
Wumi - PreCU Bloodfin
No disrespet to the Elder Jedi. Yes, that was a very mounumental grind.
An interesting condition created by the early Jedi/BH TEF system, I had friends in a city that set traps for BH hunting thier Jedi. They were, of course, on ventrilo and were based on Dantooine to grind. If one of thier Jedi was under attack he would run to their Cantina which was a safe zone. When the BH arrived in town, the whole guild would pour out and jump him. Standard attack was ban, kill the vehical, then kill him. The town was in a very isolated section of the planet forcing the BH to walk 1000s meters to the starport. As I understand, this tatic was the first condition that ended up nerfing the TEF to just the Jedi and BH involved.
Most feel that forums carebears killed the TEF. Not really true. TEF was killed with those Asian regulations against PVP. Big MMO companies could not afford to alienate themselves from the East Asian markets if they didn't change thier games. TEF may have been real fun but it was just not cost friendly for a big company. WOW's population is about 3 million Western subs and 4-5 million in the East (Asia). Think how that would have impact Blizzard if WOW had a TEF that they removed. Ah, TEF = Temporay Enemy Flag for PVP combat.