Because many players liked the deves they think "up and quit" and have your blog post where you say you had to convince "The Man" that the NGE combat system was too fun not to implement that makes them hope you were fired.
Argh. I hate to reiterate (frequently) that it was possible. They had a hard time believing we could do that combat system with multiple players and multiple opponents that fast on a live server (And I think the speed even got toned down a bit to reduce suckage from the ridiculous rate that it started at). Also I exaggerated, when I said, "I had to say this about forty times a day for two months". It was much less than that.
Right, but you're clarification came after your initial post recieved a very large negative reaction. I admit I took the clarification as you trying to whitewash your enthusiasm. You're continued expression of your preference for the psuedo FPS combat system makes your protest ring a bit hollow. You thought and think it is more 'fun' than the old system. Take your lumps for it and move on. It comes across as you trying to weasle out of saying you were a proponent of the current combat system, especially since you have posted here that you still think it is more fun than the old system.
You're the only dev who worked on part of the NGE that has admitted to having a role in it (and you're blog post made it seem like you were gung ho about the NGE, wether you intended it to or not).
I was gung-ho about the combat system, and tried to be gung-ho about everything else (more discreetly). It's part of the job.
But the point of that blog update was to criticize some folk who'd been implying the changes were SWG team, SOE exec's and LA's way of saying, "Removing the Raph will make the game fun."
The point of the update was right at the end: "So I think these sorts of remarks are a little inaccurate, a tiny bit irksome, pretty unfair."
Frankly, you're "Removing the Raph will make the game fun" cam across as you making that statement instead of you defending against the statement. The main reason is because most of the players who don't like the changes thought that "Removing the Raph" made the game much less fun. We don't view the current game as fun. We're not the folks thinking that removing most of the original game made it more fun. I still think the changes were intended to "Remove the Raph" and that the SOE and LA execs thought it would make the game 'fun'. Lots of other folks still think that too. It was whole 'living in the Star Wars world' that appealed to most of us (just as the idea of 'living in the Ultima world appealed to many of us when we played UO).
Most of "the Raph" was removed from the game and it pissed us off.
Like it or not, you're currently the only dev who has painted a target on himself and you're going to take a few lumps because of it. Maybe in the future, as more of the why and how of the NGE becomes known, you might be seen in a better light. But since you can't actually come out give specifics about what happened, you've entered into a conversation where you're not going to be able to 'clear your name'.
Oh I have learned my lesson. I will never stick up for Raph again!
As I said above, it didn't come across as you defending Mr. Koster, as much as you tossing him under a bus. It is obvious now that it wasn't your intention, but it did come across that way at the time.
If it makes you feel any better, I don't think you're as big of a douchebag as I did before our conversation here.
Sweet.
I remember you from the old UO newsgroup, and actually remember interacting with you a few times on the Lake Superior server. I am disappointed a bit by the fact that you seem to have changed from the advocate of players you were back then to more of an advocate of the developers you are now. I understand why that has happened, you being a developer yourself now, but it does seem like you have 'forgotten your roots' as it were.
I did. I'm feeling much better now.
You may feel better now, but you are still one of "them". You've crossed the rubicon, and unless you decide to become a garbageman or something, you''ll continue to be one of "them". You still have a bit of "us" in you, or you wouldn't be sticking your head out like you are., but you're still one of "them".
Right, but you're clarification came after your initial post recieved a very large negative reaction. I admit I took the clarification as you trying to whitewash your enthusiasm. You're continued expression of your preference for the psuedo FPS combat system makes your protest ring a bit hollow. You thought and think it is more 'fun' than the old system. Take your lumps for it and move on. It comes across as you trying to weasle out of saying you were a proponent of the current combat system, especially since you have posted here that you still think it is more fun than the old system.
That's not the only lie to emerge from the retelling, so I think I'll continue to clarify. If I seem trying to weasel with a protest that rings a bit hollow, then those are the lumps I'd prefer to take given how deceitfully and outrageously that post has been misrepresented.
Right, but you're clarification came after your initial post recieved a very large negative reaction. I admit I took the clarification as you trying to whitewash your enthusiasm. You're continued expression of your preference for the psuedo FPS combat system makes your protest ring a bit hollow. You thought and think it is more 'fun' than the old system. Take your lumps for it and move on. It comes across as you trying to weasle out of saying you were a proponent of the current combat system, especially since you have posted here that you still think it is more fun than the old system.
That's not the only lie to emerge from the retelling, so I think I'll continue to clarify. If I seem trying to weasel with a protest that rings a bit hollow, then those are the lumps I'd prefer to take given how deceitfully and outrageously that post has been misrepresented.
You're using the term "lie" when the term "misrinterpretation" would be more valid. I don't think claiming your post expressed enthusiasm for the new combat system would be either a "lie" or a "misenterpretation". You calimed as late as yesterday that you think the psuedo FPS combat system was more 'fun' than the old 'tab and spam' system.
You're using terms that indicate a growing hostility, which is bad if you're intention is to mend some fences.
im just wondering who puts the pressure on the Devs? Who is the person(s) that gave the ok to release the buggy rubber banding nightmare expansions like RoTW?. Did anyone actually sit down and try to navigate through Kashyyyk before its launch? Is there even a quality assurance type of team at SOE? The quality of the game was a problem long before the NGE. The CU and NGE were just more symptoms of this problem.
This game has always seemed to try and follow the trend of other Star Wars games that happen to be doing well at the time. I could be wrong in my timeline but didn't the Jedi village thing happen about the same time as KOTOR? Hell since KOTOR did well everyone must want to be jedi so lets turn the game in that direction. The Battlefront series starts doing well so everyone must want a FPS lets head in that direction. Did it ever cross the minds of the people in charge that all SWG needed to do better was some content and huge bug fixes?
Im not angry about SWG anymore. I had a great time playing it while it lasted. It is just a shame that a sand box game of that level will probably never be seen again. For all of those people that just hope it will die so we can see a SWG2 be careful what you hope for. Id put my money on SWG2 being nothing but WoW in space.
Crazy thing is, now, finally, you have a lead designer who played more pre-CU (starting prior to being on the SWG dev team) than most fans, having 5 or 6 accounts at once, paid out of his own pocket. One of the first Jedi. He liked that game a lot.
And Cao wasn't lying about BlixTev having nothing to do with NGE: Oh he worked, but he also thought every part of it that vet players hated to be a bad idea.
So even though pre-CU server roll-backs are impossible: This is the best lead designer this forum could hope for, and bonus! It sounds like the suits might stop going-for-broke with the damned thing.
SWG's major obstacle now is ... players unloading their anger at him for the mess I (and others... with supervision) made, just because he's the guy that's been handed the mop. And kneecapped. It's a savage mess.
I didn't know that much about BlixTev but then I still had a more positive opinion of him then a negative one. Althought I hugely dislike ChrisCao so I wouldn't trust one word out of his mouth but how does getting a lead developer that liked the PreCU alot more then the NGE help at all if he's not allowed to change the game from being a cookie cutter class system with a loot focus? That's the parts of the NGE I dislike the most.
Let's put it simply Mr Freeman, and use a nice iconic and starwarsy analogy.
As far as we're concerned, it's like you were a crewman on the deathstar when it blew up Alderaan. You might have disagreed with the move, you might have opposed it as much as possible, you might have left (or get fired) right after, but you were still on the thing when it blew up a lovely peaceful planet. That might not make you as guilty as Tarkin, or the guy that pushed the button... But you're not exactly clean either and no one here is going to forget that fact.
Crazy thing is, now, finally, you have a lead designer who played more pre-CU (starting prior to being on the SWG dev team) than most fans, having 5 or 6 accounts at once, paid out of his own pocket. One of the first Jedi. He liked that game a lot.
And Cao wasn't lying about BlixTev having nothing to do with NGE: Oh he worked, but he also thought every part of it that vet players hated to be a bad idea.
So even though pre-CU server roll-backs are impossible: This is the best lead designer this forum could hope for, and bonus! It sounds like the suits might stop going-for-broke with the damned thing.
SWG's major obstacle now is ... players unloading their anger at him for the mess I (and others... with supervision) made, just because he's the guy that's been handed the mop. And kneecapped. It's a savage mess.
It is impossible to re-implement what made Pre-CU great inside the limiting NGE framework. It'd be like trying to revamp a moped into a Corvette.
So even if Blixtev WANTED to bring back Pre-CU within NGE, it can't be done, not without essentially rewriting everything again.
It is impossible to bring back the old professions, or even to change the NGE to being skill template based, the framework doesn't make that possible. Ditto the crappy, buggy, unfun combat system.
You just can't get there from here. So, what Blixtev may or may not want to do is irrelevant, it CANT be done.
The problem is, what the players don't like is the NGE itself. Until getting rid of that is on the table, no solution offered by any of the Devs will be acceptable or workable.
My main objections to the NGE are:
1. Static professions instead of open skill trees
2. Jedi not being an earned unlock.
3. A schitzo combat system that is at least 4x faster than it should be, is buggy as hell, and has the worst UI controls of any MMO on the market.
4. Crafted items not being greater than looted items in the endgame (CL90). I can live with spoon feeding looted stuff to people grinding, but the crafting masters should rule the endgame as far as supplying stuff.
5. No content
My guess is 90% of those who quit agree with most of my points above.
So, Freeman, what do you think Blixtev could possibly do to address those points while having to live within the confines of the NGE?
Answer: Very little. Oh, they can enhance crafting a little with the RE gimmick, but not substantively enough to matter. They can tweak combat a little, but not enough to matter. Expertise did little to fix the lack of a skill system. And they haven't added one iota of content to the game in nearly a year. As for Jedi, how can they possibly put that genie back in the bottle?
The problem here is the game has broken and severed arms and legs, but Blixtev only has band aids to fix them with.
Sorry dundee but what wildcat84 has stated is 100 perc true, i personly agree with his reply in ref to above.
only one way to undo the mess, rollback a server or two, to before the nge, game on but thats never going to happen because the nge has killed off the player base, and is doubtfull that soe make anything in profit margin to reinvest in running a staffed server for this superb idea, and they seem happy just losing subscriptions, i just cannot see the logic in the direction the game is going.
as for who is to blame well who else is there to blame but smedley, unless jeff you wish to disclose the genious that came up with the nge?.
Crazy thing is, now, finally, you have a lead designer who played more pre-CU (starting prior to being on the SWG dev team) than most fans, having 5 or 6 accounts at once, paid out of his own pocket. One of the first Jedi. He liked that game a lot. And Cao wasn't lying about BlixTev having nothing to do with NGE: Oh he worked, but he also thought every part of it that vet players hated to be a bad idea. So even though pre-CU server roll-backs are impossible: This is the best lead designer this forum could hope for, and bonus! It sounds like the suits might stop going-for-broke with the damned thing. SWG's major obstacle now is ... players unloading their anger at him for the mess I (and others... with supervision) made, just because he's the guy that's been handed the mop. And kneecapped. It's a savage mess.
It is impossible to re-implement what made Pre-CU great inside the limiting NGE framework. It'd be like trying to revamp a moped into a Corvette.
So even if Blixtev WANTED to bring back Pre-CU within NGE, it can't be done, not without essentially rewriting everything again.
It is impossible to bring back the old professions, or even to change the NGE to being skill template based, the framework doesn't make that possible. Ditto the crappy, buggy, unfun combat system.
You just can't get there from here. So, what Blixtev may or may not want to do is irrelevant, it CANT be done.
The problem is, what the players don't like is the NGE itself. Until getting rid of that is on the table, no solution offered by any of the Devs will be acceptable or workable.
My main objections to the NGE are:
1. Static professions instead of open skill trees
2. Jedi not being an earned unlock.
3. A schitzo combat system that is at least 4x faster than it should be, is buggy as hell, and has the worst UI controls of any MMO on the market.
4. Crafted items not being greater than looted items in the endgame (CL90). I can live with spoon feeding looted stuff to people grinding, but the crafting masters should rule the endgame as far as supplying stuff.
5. No content
My guess is 90% of those who quit agree with most of my points above.
So, Freeman, what do you think Blixtev could possibly do to address those points while having to live within the confines of the NGE?
Answer: Very little. Oh, they can enhance crafting a little with the RE gimmick, but not substantively enough to matter. They can tweak combat a little, but not enough to matter. Expertise did little to fix the lack of a skill system. And they haven't added one iota of content to the game in nearly a year. As for Jedi, how can they possibly put that genie back in the bottle?
The problem here is the game has broken and severed arms and legs, but Blixtev only has band aids to fix them with.
i have to agree 110% with everything in this post..if they had listen'd to to Blix im sure this mess wouldve never happend..At least he was one of us that enjoyed the game as is.Too bad we had to come to this point were no matter who is right it still gets us no closer to a Precu game back..
Originally posted by Dundee Crazy thing is, now, finally, you have a lead designer who played more pre-CU (starting prior to being on the SWG dev team) than most fans, having 5 or 6 accounts at once, paid out of his own pocket. One of the first Jedi. He liked that game a lot. And Cao wasn't lying about BlixTev having nothing to do with NGE: Oh he worked, but he also thought every part of it that vet players hated to be a bad idea. So even though pre-CU server roll-backs are impossible: This is the best lead designer this forum could hope for, and bonus! It sounds like the suits might stop going-for-broke with the damned thing. SWG's major obstacle now is ... players unloading their anger at him for the mess I (and others... with supervision) made, just because he's the guy that's been handed the mop. And kneecapped. It's a savage mess.
It is impossible to re-implement what made Pre-CU great inside the limiting NGE framework. It'd be like trying to revamp a moped into a Corvette.
So even if Blixtev WANTED to bring back Pre-CU within NGE, it can't be done, not without essentially rewriting everything again.
It is impossible to bring back the old professions, or even to change the NGE to being skill template based, the framework doesn't make that possible. Ditto the crappy, buggy, unfun combat system.
You just can't get there from here. So, what Blixtev may or may not want to do is irrelevant, it CANT be done.
The problem is, what the players don't like is the NGE itself. Until getting rid of that is on the table, no solution offered by any of the Devs will be acceptable or workable.
My main objections to the NGE are:
1. Static professions instead of open skill trees
2. Jedi not being an earned unlock.
3. A schitzo combat system that is at least 4x faster than it should be, is buggy as hell, and has the worst UI controls of any MMO on the market.
4. Crafted items not being greater than looted items in the endgame (CL90). I can live with spoon feeding looted stuff to people grinding, but the crafting masters should rule the endgame as far as supplying stuff.
5. No content
My guess is 90% of those who quit agree with most of my points above.
So, Freeman, what do you think Blixtev could possibly do to address those points while having to live within the confines of the NGE?
Answer: Very little. Oh, they can enhance crafting a little with the RE gimmick, but not substantively enough to matter. They can tweak combat a little, but not enough to matter. Expertise did little to fix the lack of a skill system. And they haven't added one iota of content to the game in nearly a year. As for Jedi, how can they possibly put that genie back in the bottle?
The problem here is the game has broken and severed arms and legs, but Blixtev only has band aids to fix them with.
It's too late for NGE if they really think roll back or reverting everything back is impossible.
They've been talking about adding an old profession back to game since last year. Over a year they just talked about adding CH. Next publish, next publish, next publish... Nothing came.
I don't mean anything about CH, I mean; if SWG now has a lead designer who REALLY liked PreCU, even he has nothing to do anymore. This game cannot be saved.
It still has countless bugs, it has the worst MMO combat system, it has crap class system... It's far from PreCU, in all stages...
People can blame Smed, j. Freeman, helios or any other dev who worked on NGE. Blaming them won't be something wrong, since all of em has a point on NGE. However, blaming em won't bring us anything good or bad. The only thing would happen is;
You can see those people's name in developer list of a game and you could think "oh that guy! i better stay away from this game"
You really can't blame SOE for the NGE from a realistic point of view. Membership had taken a hit and was on the decline ever since publish 9. SOE had to do something to reach a wider audience. I can't say I agree with the NGE nor do I like it, but sometimes, you need to bail for all you're worth, and sometimes, it's not good enough.
You really can't blame SOE for the NGE from a realistic point of view. Membership had taken a hit and was on the decline ever since publish 9. SOE had to do something to reach a wider audience. I can't say I agree with the NGE nor do I like it, but sometimes, you need to bail for all you're worth, and sometimes, it's not good enough.
Yes, realisticly I can. Alot of those droping numbers were from other SoE fuck ups, things like the xp nerf or the root changes kept pissing more players off for no good reason. Adding to the game instead of constantly re-working the games basic systems or undermining it's strengths (adding more and more loot to the detrement of the crafting economy) would have been a better move. Then throw in the fact that SWG, as alot of us have found out since the NGE, was a very unique game that players would have come back to because there is little else on the market that has all the PreCUs features or even the CUs features.
and all that is even before going into the way they did the NGE.
Lucasarts, plain and simple, is to blame. It's the only logical source. The NGE was designed, and they made no secret of this, to sell more boxes. They hadn't even finished anything beyond level 30, at release.
Lucasarts makes most of their money from SWG on the box sales. Sony's sitting pretty with the station pass giving subscription money to a core pool for all the games. Thus, for a change that was made to sell more boxes, it's obvious that it'd be Lucasarts' fault.
$OE designed every bit of it. LA enabled the failures and the player-screwing.
QFE
Thats exactly how I see it. It doesnt really matter to me what LA might've asked for, wether it was higher subscription numbers, more accessibility for newer players, more of a Star Wars feel, etc etc, what matters to me is that SOE developed, pitched, and implimented absolute crap in response to those demands.
Originally posted by Wildcat84
John Smedley Julio Torres Jim Ward Nancy "Reading is Bad" McIntyre Lord Pall (whom Freeman is throwing under the bus as the true NGE architect, though everyone recalls he himself taking the credit back when he and the rest were full of it thinking NGE ws the greatest thing ever) Jeff Freeman The Dork Lord Heliass (true, he was just the moronic stooge who was thrown in to take the spears by the rest) Grant McDaniel
None of those persons should ever work in gaming, nor should anyone ever buy any game produced that has one of them in the credits.
AMEN to that, and damned good advice, unless of course your a person who actually enjoys being lied to, cheated, and eventually kicked in the nads and told to move aside so that they can recruit the imaginary 10yr old kid down the street.
Originally posted by Fobok
Lucasarts, plain and simple, is to blame. It's the only logical source. The NGE was designed, and they made no secret of this, to sell more boxes. They hadn't even finished anything beyond level 30, at release.
Lucasarts makes most of their money from SWG on the box sales. Sony's sitting pretty with the station pass giving subscription money to a core pool for all the games. Thus, for a change that was made to sell more boxes, it's obvious that it'd be Lucasarts' fault.
Have to disagree with this, it wasnt LA that made the NGE, it was SOE, therefore I blame them. The following post from the official SWG forums pretty much seals the deal for me, at least when it comes to the OPs original question, "Who is to blame for the train wreck SWG became with the NGE?"
First a request, to those of you using this thread as your personal battleground, please take it to PM's.
So, I wanted to clarify that we did, here at SOE conceive and develop the NGE. We did so with the best of intentions, to try and make a better game. No blame or buck is being passed.
We can, and I am sure many of us will, debate for years on end whether this was a good idea. Personally, I believe the concept of the NGE was sound. Some smart guys had some good ideas to make the game better, Jeff being one of them, and they went for it. A bold move and honestly, I am happy to be a part of a company that is not afraid to try something different.
Where did we go wrong? Delivery, we failed in our timing and communication. That is where we let you down most, SWG faithful, and for that I truly apologize.
Brenlo Bixiebopper
Director, Global Community Relations - SOE
---------------------------------------------
It's a rough life, but someone has to live it.
"Uh, we had a slight weapons malfunction, but uh... everything's perfectly all right now. We're fine. We're all fine here now, thank you. How are you?"
You really can't blame SOE for the NGE from a realistic point of view. Membership had taken a hit and was on the decline ever since publish 9. SOE had to do something to reach a wider audience. I can't say I agree with the NGE nor do I like it, but sometimes, you need to bail for all you're worth, and sometimes, it's not good enough.
Not squashing bugs and a complete lack of content was the reason SWG declined.
Now who was responsible for both? Oh, that's right.. $OE!
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
I know i sound like im angry or something, im not..just my way of seeing it. I know i dont know shit about it either. Ya need to get LA to loosen up a little on the super serial NDA so maybe some wounds could be mended. Im not even really that upset SOE tried the NGE..its just when you finally saw what it was on TC and then learned that it was for people who dont even play this game, and could plainly see the obvious failure it would be, just because of it barely being ready for pre-beta let alone a live server. Its like "you dumped us for this? Total pwnge!! Ya, hi, im one of the people that got dumped for the NGE. its a great feelin .
'Don't think I need the NDA lifted... I've got nothing more to tell you than you already know.
Thanks for sharing what info you could. Can't speak for others, but i appreciate it. Best of luck.
Non of this is specifically pointed at you or any one person btw. And i can imagine that it does upset you to see people hatin you. But, we're basically in the same boat. It hurts us just as much to see the game you worked on for 6 years go through this. None of us wanted this. Obviously we LOVED this game and We would have loved to be swg's teams biggest fanboi's. if you guys would have given us the chance. But, thats history now i guess.
Crazy thing is, now, finally, you have a lead designer who played more pre-CU (starting prior to being on the SWG dev team) than most fans, having 5 or 6 accounts at once, paid out of his own pocket. One of the first Jedi. He liked that game a lot.
And Cao wasn't lying about BlixTev having nothing to do with NGE: Oh he worked, but he also thought every part of it that vet players hated to be a bad idea.
So even though pre-CU server roll-backs are impossible: This is the best lead designer this forum could hope for, and bonus! It sounds like the suits might stop going-for-broke with the damned thing.
SWG's major obstacle now is ... players unloading their anger at him for the mess I (and others... with supervision) made, just because he's the guy that's been handed the mop. And kneecapped. It's a savage mess.
Can't argue with that.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
all i had ever asked for was my bh missions to stop giving me targets in totally inaccessible places. and better graphics.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Freeman, you may or may not have had a big hand in the NGE, but the damage of the NGE and the loss of the ONLY game on the market that actually offered me something more than a themepark "diablo/koreangrind/dungeonromp/Whack-A-Mole" type of play has made me weary.
If such a game ever arrives again, I just can't risk having you or any of the other SOE devs that in their mind thought that "this part of the NGE is fun!!". I would not buy that game if any of those people were even within a gastanks distance of the developement.
As for LEC and SWG? When SWG was released, guess what games were advertised on Star Wars websites, Star Wars magazines, Star Wars comics and Star Wars books? Not SWG. It was barely advertised..And yet it became quickly one of the top MMORPG's until WoW launched with a massive Add campaign(wich also featured adds in Star Wars magazines..).
By the time they started advertising SWG, it was too late, the game had been CU'ed and later NGE'ed, and too many pissed off customers were around.
I know i sound like im angry or something, im not..just my way of seeing it. I know i dont know shit about it either. Ya need to get LA to loosen up a little on the super serial NDA so maybe some wounds could be mended. Im not even really that upset SOE tried the NGE..its just when you finally saw what it was on TC and then learned that it was for people who dont even play this game, and could plainly see the obvious failure it would be, just because of it barely being ready for pre-beta let alone a live server. Its like "you dumped us for this? Total pwnge!! Ya, hi, im one of the people that got dumped for the NGE. its a great feelin .
'Don't think I need the NDA lifted... I've got nothing more to tell you than you already know.
Thanks for sharing what info you could. Can't speak for others, but i appreciate it. Best of luck.
Non of this is specifically pointed at you or any one person btw. And i can imagine that it does upset you to see people hatin you. But, we're basically in the same boat. It hurts us just as much to see the game you worked on for 6 years go through this. None of us wanted this. Obviously we LOVED this game and We would have loved to be swg's teams biggest fanboi's. if you guys would have given us the chance. But, thats history now i guess.
Crazy thing is, now, finally, you have a lead designer who played more pre-CU (starting prior to being on the SWG dev team) than most fans, having 5 or 6 accounts at once, paid out of his own pocket. One of the first Jedi. He liked that game a lot.
And Cao wasn't lying about BlixTev having nothing to do with NGE: Oh he worked, but he also thought every part of it that vet players hated to be a bad idea.
So even though pre-CU server roll-backs are impossible: This is the best lead designer this forum could hope for, and bonus! It sounds like the suits might stop going-for-broke with the damned thing.
SWG's major obstacle now is ... players unloading their anger at him for the mess I (and others... with supervision) made, just because he's the guy that's been handed the mop. And kneecapped. It's a savage mess.
Can't argue with that.
i can't imagine what Blix can do to ssave it..He can try to add stuff back in but that still doesnt change the fact the gameplay is horrid.The combat engine to the horrid new UI to well just about everything.Those over the top flashy goofy effects and well the whole things just a mess..Im not even talking about the professions either they are just as horrid as the combat engine being used.So i dont see how Blix precu player/dev can do anything short of revamp.I just dont have as much hope he will change much being the powers that be wont let him..So id rather hear from SOE that a 3rd revamp is coming not what they can do to add back..3rd times a charm..
Crazy thing is, now, finally, you have a lead designer who played more pre-CU (starting prior to being on the SWG dev team) than most fans, having 5 or 6 accounts at once, paid out of his own pocket. One of the first Jedi. He liked that game a lot.
And Cao wasn't lying about BlixTev having nothing to do with NGE: Oh he worked, but he also thought every part of it that vet players hated to be a bad idea.
So even though pre-CU server roll-backs are impossible: This is the best lead designer this forum could hope for, and bonus! It sounds like the suits might stop going-for-broke with the damned thing.
SWG's major obstacle now is ... players unloading their anger at him for the mess I (and others... with supervision) made, just because he's the guy that's been handed the mop. And kneecapped. It's a savage mess.
Can't argue with that.
i can't imagine what Blix can do to ssave it..He can try to add stuff back in but that still doesnt change the fact the gameplay is horrid.The combat engine to the horrid new UI to well just about everything.Those over the top flashy goofy effects and well the whole things just a mess..Im not even talking about the professions either they are just as horrid as the combat engine being used.So i dont see how Blix precu player/dev can do anything short of revamp.I just dont have as much hope he will change much being the powers that be wont let him..So id rather hear from SOE that a 3rd revamp is coming not what they can do to add back..3rd times a charm..
I dont think he is saying he can fix it. It almost sounds like that IS what he's saying, but i dont wanna put words in his mouth .just that some people shouldnt "unload their anger" on him cause he really doesnt deserve it cause he was against the changes too.
I wish blitz the best...but his job is as impossible as pre-cu server rollbacks as Dundee called it.(which isnt what anyone wants. I'm assuming he meant classic servers)
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
I just wanted to say thank you Mr. Freeman for taking your time to post here. Your posts have in some areas cleared things up quite a bit, though in others may have clouded a little. I just hope that nobody has to go through all the crap no matter what side of the fence you were on that came with the NGE ever again. I think all involved have learned alot.
I do have a question though... although I do not know if you can answer it.
I have seen in a few of your posts that you refer to aCreative Director or lack there of. Now I have a few thoughts on this.
Was Raph made an exec. to move him from the project? In order to move the game in a different direction?
To me it dose not make a whole lot of sense to promote such a key position without having anyone in mind to replace them. My guess that that is your point. If so I would have to agree.
So my question is as far as you know SWG still dose not have it's own CD? In one of your posts you stated:
Cao has been the Studio Creative Director the whole time he's been there, dual-wielding as SWG's CD 'cause it needed one.
So we are talking years without a real CD?
After Raph left for San Diego I get the impression that development of practicly anything was kind of a free for all. Wether working on say rangers or a new quest. Due to lack of "vision"?
There are hundreds more questions i could ask..so if you are ever in phoenix hit me up I'll buy you a few beers :P
Those are the two principle people behind the original Combat Dumb-Down and complete revamps of SWG. Truly, it started with patch 9 and then shortly there after came the mass exodus brought on by the CU.
"SWG was a world, now it's just a game" -adamrk-
"When the game was good, you didn't have to ask where the population was, because it was everywhere. When the game was good you didn't have to ask which server had population, because they all did. When the game was good you didn't have to beg friends to give it a try, because they were already playing. " - Salty Pete
Let's put it simply Mr Freeman, and use a nice iconic and starwarsy analogy.
As far as we're concerned, it's like you were a crewman on the deathstar when it blew up Alderaan. You might have disagreed with the move, you might have opposed it as much as possible, you might have left (or get fired) right after, but you were still on the thing when it blew up a lovely peaceful planet. That might not make you as guilty as Tarkin, or the guy that pushed the button... But you're not exactly clean either and no one here is going to forget that fact.
You're using the term "lie" when the term "misrinterpretation" would be more valid. I don't think claiming your post expressed enthusiasm for the new combat system would be either a "lie" or a "misenterpretation". You calimed as late as yesterday that you think the psuedo FPS combat system was more 'fun' than the old 'tab and spam' system.
You're using terms that indicate a growing hostility, which is bad if you're intention is to mend some fences.
It's the same few folk who keep doing it though. Tossing out that misinterpretation with a presentation attached to ensure the reader sees things just so.
Not just posting a bit out of context, then saying what they think it means; but posting with a prelude, then out of context text with bold, italics and colors to emphasize what hadn't been emphasized, and concluded with statements that look like facts and sound like facts, to ensure that it can only be interpreted the way they want it to be interpreted.
If "lie" is too strong, misinterpretation is too weak. Particularly when the show is repeated... everywhere.
Yes, realisticly I can. Alot of those droping numbers were from other SoE fuck ups, things like the xp nerf or the root changes kept pissing more players off for no good reason. Adding to the game instead of constantly re-working the games basic systems or undermining it's strengths (adding more and more loot to the detrement of the crafting economy) would have been a better move. Then throw in the fact that SWG, as alot of us have found out since the NGE, was a very unique game that players would have come back to because there is little else on the market that has all the PreCUs features or even the CUs features.
and all that is even before going into the way they did the NGE.
This was the point I tried to make earlier, when I said the NGE wasn't really the problem, but rather all the things that lead to that point.
Comments
Right, but you're clarification came after your initial post recieved a very large negative reaction. I admit I took the clarification as you trying to whitewash your enthusiasm. You're continued expression of your preference for the psuedo FPS combat system makes your protest ring a bit hollow. You thought and think it is more 'fun' than the old system. Take your lumps for it and move on. It comes across as you trying to weasle out of saying you were a proponent of the current combat system, especially since you have posted here that you still think it is more fun than the old system.
I was gung-ho about the combat system, and tried to be gung-ho about everything else (more discreetly). It's part of the job.
But the point of that blog update was to criticize some folk who'd been implying the changes were SWG team, SOE exec's and LA's way of saying, "Removing the Raph will make the game fun."
The point of the update was right at the end: "So I think these sorts of remarks are a little inaccurate, a tiny bit irksome, pretty unfair."
Frankly, you're "Removing the Raph will make the game fun" cam across as you making that statement instead of you defending against the statement. The main reason is because most of the players who don't like the changes thought that "Removing the Raph" made the game much less fun. We don't view the current game as fun. We're not the folks thinking that removing most of the original game made it more fun. I still think the changes were intended to "Remove the Raph" and that the SOE and LA execs thought it would make the game 'fun'. Lots of other folks still think that too. It was whole 'living in the Star Wars world' that appealed to most of us (just as the idea of 'living in the Ultima world appealed to many of us when we played UO).
Most of "the Raph" was removed from the game and it pissed us off.
Oh I have learned my lesson. I will never stick up for Raph again!
As I said above, it didn't come across as you defending Mr. Koster, as much as you tossing him under a bus. It is obvious now that it wasn't your intention, but it did come across that way at the time.
Sweet.
I did. I'm feeling much better now.
You may feel better now, but you are still one of "them". You've crossed the rubicon, and unless you decide to become a garbageman or something, you''ll continue to be one of "them". You still have a bit of "us" in you, or you wouldn't be sticking your head out like you are., but you're still one of "them".
Jeff Freeman
You're using the term "lie" when the term "misrinterpretation" would be more valid. I don't think claiming your post expressed enthusiasm for the new combat system would be either a "lie" or a "misenterpretation". You calimed as late as yesterday that you think the psuedo FPS combat system was more 'fun' than the old 'tab and spam' system.
You're using terms that indicate a growing hostility, which is bad if you're intention is to mend some fences.
im just wondering who puts the pressure on the Devs? Who is the person(s) that gave the ok to release the buggy rubber banding nightmare expansions like RoTW?. Did anyone actually sit down and try to navigate through Kashyyyk before its launch? Is there even a quality assurance type of team at SOE? The quality of the game was a problem long before the NGE. The CU and NGE were just more symptoms of this problem.
This game has always seemed to try and follow the trend of other Star Wars games that happen to be doing well at the time. I could be wrong in my timeline but didn't the Jedi village thing happen about the same time as KOTOR? Hell since KOTOR did well everyone must want to be jedi so lets turn the game in that direction. The Battlefront series starts doing well so everyone must want a FPS lets head in that direction. Did it ever cross the minds of the people in charge that all SWG needed to do better was some content and huge bug fixes?
Im not angry about SWG anymore. I had a great time playing it while it lasted. It is just a shame that a sand box game of that level will probably never be seen again. For all of those people that just hope it will die so we can see a SWG2 be careful what you hope for. Id put my money on SWG2 being nothing but WoW in space.
I didn't know that much about BlixTev but then I still had a more positive opinion of him then a negative one. Althought I hugely dislike ChrisCao so I wouldn't trust one word out of his mouth but how does getting a lead developer that liked the PreCU alot more then the NGE help at all if he's not allowed to change the game from being a cookie cutter class system with a loot focus? That's the parts of the NGE I dislike the most.
As far as we're concerned, it's like you were a crewman on the deathstar when it blew up Alderaan. You might have disagreed with the move, you might have opposed it as much as possible, you might have left (or get fired) right after, but you were still on the thing when it blew up a lovely peaceful planet. That might not make you as guilty as Tarkin, or the guy that pushed the button... But you're not exactly clean either and no one here is going to forget that fact.
"Peace through superior firepower"
It is impossible to re-implement what made Pre-CU great inside the limiting NGE framework. It'd be like trying to revamp a moped into a Corvette.
So even if Blixtev WANTED to bring back Pre-CU within NGE, it can't be done, not without essentially rewriting everything again.
It is impossible to bring back the old professions, or even to change the NGE to being skill template based, the framework doesn't make that possible. Ditto the crappy, buggy, unfun combat system.
You just can't get there from here. So, what Blixtev may or may not want to do is irrelevant, it CANT be done.
The problem is, what the players don't like is the NGE itself. Until getting rid of that is on the table, no solution offered by any of the Devs will be acceptable or workable.
My main objections to the NGE are:
1. Static professions instead of open skill trees
2. Jedi not being an earned unlock.
3. A schitzo combat system that is at least 4x faster than it should be, is buggy as hell, and has the worst UI controls of any MMO on the market.
4. Crafted items not being greater than looted items in the endgame (CL90). I can live with spoon feeding looted stuff to people grinding, but the crafting masters should rule the endgame as far as supplying stuff.
5. No content
My guess is 90% of those who quit agree with most of my points above.
So, Freeman, what do you think Blixtev could possibly do to address those points while having to live within the confines of the NGE?
Answer: Very little. Oh, they can enhance crafting a little with the RE gimmick, but not substantively enough to matter. They can tweak combat a little, but not enough to matter. Expertise did little to fix the lack of a skill system. And they haven't added one iota of content to the game in nearly a year. As for Jedi, how can they possibly put that genie back in the bottle?
The problem here is the game has broken and severed arms and legs, but Blixtev only has band aids to fix them with.
Sorry dundee but what wildcat84 has stated is 100 perc true, i personly agree with his reply in ref to above.
only one way to undo the mess, rollback a server or two, to before the nge, game on but thats never going to happen because the nge has killed off the player base, and is doubtfull that soe make anything in profit margin to reinvest in running a staffed server for this superb idea, and they seem happy just losing subscriptions, i just cannot see the logic in the direction the game is going.
as for who is to blame well who else is there to blame but smedley, unless jeff you wish to disclose the genious that came up with the nge?.
It is impossible to re-implement what made Pre-CU great inside the limiting NGE framework. It'd be like trying to revamp a moped into a Corvette.
So even if Blixtev WANTED to bring back Pre-CU within NGE, it can't be done, not without essentially rewriting everything again.
It is impossible to bring back the old professions, or even to change the NGE to being skill template based, the framework doesn't make that possible. Ditto the crappy, buggy, unfun combat system.
You just can't get there from here. So, what Blixtev may or may not want to do is irrelevant, it CANT be done.
The problem is, what the players don't like is the NGE itself. Until getting rid of that is on the table, no solution offered by any of the Devs will be acceptable or workable.
My main objections to the NGE are:
1. Static professions instead of open skill trees
2. Jedi not being an earned unlock.
3. A schitzo combat system that is at least 4x faster than it should be, is buggy as hell, and has the worst UI controls of any MMO on the market.
4. Crafted items not being greater than looted items in the endgame (CL90). I can live with spoon feeding looted stuff to people grinding, but the crafting masters should rule the endgame as far as supplying stuff.
5. No content
My guess is 90% of those who quit agree with most of my points above.
So, Freeman, what do you think Blixtev could possibly do to address those points while having to live within the confines of the NGE?
Answer: Very little. Oh, they can enhance crafting a little with the RE gimmick, but not substantively enough to matter. They can tweak combat a little, but not enough to matter. Expertise did little to fix the lack of a skill system. And they haven't added one iota of content to the game in nearly a year. As for Jedi, how can they possibly put that genie back in the bottle?
The problem here is the game has broken and severed arms and legs, but Blixtev only has band aids to fix them with.
i have to agree 110% with everything in this post..if they had listen'd to to Blix im sure this mess wouldve never happend..At least he was one of us that enjoyed the game as is.Too bad we had to come to this point were no matter who is right it still gets us no closer to a Precu game back..
It is impossible to re-implement what made Pre-CU great inside the limiting NGE framework. It'd be like trying to revamp a moped into a Corvette.
So even if Blixtev WANTED to bring back Pre-CU within NGE, it can't be done, not without essentially rewriting everything again.
It is impossible to bring back the old professions, or even to change the NGE to being skill template based, the framework doesn't make that possible. Ditto the crappy, buggy, unfun combat system.
You just can't get there from here. So, what Blixtev may or may not want to do is irrelevant, it CANT be done.
The problem is, what the players don't like is the NGE itself. Until getting rid of that is on the table, no solution offered by any of the Devs will be acceptable or workable.
My main objections to the NGE are:
1. Static professions instead of open skill trees
2. Jedi not being an earned unlock.
3. A schitzo combat system that is at least 4x faster than it should be, is buggy as hell, and has the worst UI controls of any MMO on the market.
4. Crafted items not being greater than looted items in the endgame (CL90). I can live with spoon feeding looted stuff to people grinding, but the crafting masters should rule the endgame as far as supplying stuff.
5. No content
My guess is 90% of those who quit agree with most of my points above.
So, Freeman, what do you think Blixtev could possibly do to address those points while having to live within the confines of the NGE?
Answer: Very little. Oh, they can enhance crafting a little with the RE gimmick, but not substantively enough to matter. They can tweak combat a little, but not enough to matter. Expertise did little to fix the lack of a skill system. And they haven't added one iota of content to the game in nearly a year. As for Jedi, how can they possibly put that genie back in the bottle?
The problem here is the game has broken and severed arms and legs, but Blixtev only has band aids to fix them with.
It's too late for NGE if they really think roll back or reverting everything back is impossible.They've been talking about adding an old profession back to game since last year. Over a year they just talked about adding CH. Next publish, next publish, next publish... Nothing came.
I don't mean anything about CH, I mean; if SWG now has a lead designer who REALLY liked PreCU, even he has nothing to do anymore. This game cannot be saved.
It still has countless bugs, it has the worst MMO combat system, it has crap class system... It's far from PreCU, in all stages...
People can blame Smed, j. Freeman, helios or any other dev who worked on NGE. Blaming them won't be something wrong, since all of em has a point on NGE. However, blaming em won't bring us anything good or bad. The only thing would happen is;
You can see those people's name in developer list of a game and you could think "oh that guy! i better stay away from this game"
You really can't blame SOE for the NGE from a realistic point of view. Membership had taken a hit and was on the decline ever since publish 9. SOE had to do something to reach a wider audience. I can't say I agree with the NGE nor do I like it, but sometimes, you need to bail for all you're worth, and sometimes, it's not good enough.
Yes, realisticly I can. Alot of those droping numbers were from other SoE fuck ups, things like the xp nerf or the root changes kept pissing more players off for no good reason. Adding to the game instead of constantly re-working the games basic systems or undermining it's strengths (adding more and more loot to the detrement of the crafting economy) would have been a better move. Then throw in the fact that SWG, as alot of us have found out since the NGE, was a very unique game that players would have come back to because there is little else on the market that has all the PreCUs features or even the CUs features.
and all that is even before going into the way they did the NGE.
Lucasarts makes most of their money from SWG on the box sales. Sony's sitting pretty with the station pass giving subscription money to a core pool for all the games. Thus, for a change that was made to sell more boxes, it's obvious that it'd be Lucasarts' fault.
QFE
Thats exactly how I see it. It doesnt really matter to me what LA might've asked for, wether it was higher subscription numbers, more accessibility for newer players, more of a Star Wars feel, etc etc, what matters to me is that SOE developed, pitched, and implimented absolute crap in response to those demands.
AMEN to that, and damned good advice, unless of course your a person who actually enjoys being lied to, cheated, and eventually kicked in the nads and told to move aside so that they can recruit the imaginary 10yr old kid down the street.
Have to disagree with this, it wasnt LA that made the NGE, it was SOE, therefore I blame them. The following post from the official SWG forums pretty much seals the deal for me, at least when it comes to the OPs original question, "Who is to blame for the train wreck SWG became with the NGE?"
(Link)
First a request, to those of you using this thread as your personal battleground, please take it to PM's.
So, I wanted to clarify that we did, here at SOE conceive and develop the NGE. We did so with the best of intentions, to try and make a better game. No blame or buck is being passed.
We can, and I am sure many of us will, debate for years on end whether this was a good idea. Personally, I believe the concept of the NGE was sound. Some smart guys had some good ideas to make the game better, Jeff being one of them, and they went for it. A bold move and honestly, I am happy to be a part of a company that is not afraid to try something different.
Where did we go wrong? Delivery, we failed in our timing and communication. That is where we let you down most, SWG faithful, and for that I truly apologize.
Brenlo Bixiebopper
Director, Global Community Relations - SOE
---------------------------------------------
It's a rough life, but someone has to live it.
"Uh, we had a slight weapons malfunction, but uh... everything's perfectly all right now.
We're fine. We're all fine here now, thank you. How are you?"
Now who was responsible for both? Oh, that's right.. $OE!
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
'Don't think I need the NDA lifted... I've got nothing more to tell you than you already know.
Thanks for sharing what info you could. Can't speak for others, but i appreciate it. Best of luck.
Crazy thing is, now, finally, you have a lead designer who played more pre-CU (starting prior to being on the SWG dev team) than most fans, having 5 or 6 accounts at once, paid out of his own pocket. One of the first Jedi. He liked that game a lot.And Cao wasn't lying about BlixTev having nothing to do with NGE: Oh he worked, but he also thought every part of it that vet players hated to be a bad idea.
So even though pre-CU server roll-backs are impossible: This is the best lead designer this forum could hope for, and bonus! It sounds like the suits might stop going-for-broke with the damned thing.
SWG's major obstacle now is ... players unloading their anger at him for the mess I (and others... with supervision) made, just because he's the guy that's been handed the mop. And kneecapped. It's a savage mess.
Can't argue with that.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
all i had ever asked for was my bh missions to stop giving me targets in totally inaccessible places. and better graphics.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Well, first let me say this:
Freeman, you may or may not have had a big hand in the NGE, but the damage of the NGE and the loss of the ONLY game on the market that actually offered me something more than a themepark "diablo/koreangrind/dungeonromp/Whack-A-Mole" type of play has made me weary.
If such a game ever arrives again, I just can't risk having you or any of the other SOE devs that in their mind thought that "this part of the NGE is fun!!". I would not buy that game if any of those people were even within a gastanks distance of the developement.
As for LEC and SWG? When SWG was released, guess what games were advertised on Star Wars websites, Star Wars magazines, Star Wars comics and Star Wars books? Not SWG. It was barely advertised..And yet it became quickly one of the top MMORPG's until WoW launched with a massive Add campaign(wich also featured adds in Star Wars magazines..).
By the time they started advertising SWG, it was too late, the game had been CU'ed and later NGE'ed, and too many pissed off customers were around.
'Don't think I need the NDA lifted... I've got nothing more to tell you than you already know.
Thanks for sharing what info you could. Can't speak for others, but i appreciate it. Best of luck.
Crazy thing is, now, finally, you have a lead designer who played more pre-CU (starting prior to being on the SWG dev team) than most fans, having 5 or 6 accounts at once, paid out of his own pocket. One of the first Jedi. He liked that game a lot.And Cao wasn't lying about BlixTev having nothing to do with NGE: Oh he worked, but he also thought every part of it that vet players hated to be a bad idea.
So even though pre-CU server roll-backs are impossible: This is the best lead designer this forum could hope for, and bonus! It sounds like the suits might stop going-for-broke with the damned thing.
SWG's major obstacle now is ... players unloading their anger at him for the mess I (and others... with supervision) made, just because he's the guy that's been handed the mop. And kneecapped. It's a savage mess.
Can't argue with that.
i can't imagine what Blix can do to ssave it..He can try to add stuff back in but that still doesnt change the fact the gameplay is horrid.The combat engine to the horrid new UI to well just about everything.Those over the top flashy goofy effects and well the whole things just a mess..Im not even talking about the professions either they are just as horrid as the combat engine being used.So i dont see how Blix precu player/dev can do anything short of revamp.I just dont have as much hope he will change much being the powers that be wont let him..So id rather hear from SOE that a 3rd revamp is coming not what they can do to add back..3rd times a charm..
Can't argue with that.
i can't imagine what Blix can do to ssave it..He can try to add stuff back in but that still doesnt change the fact the gameplay is horrid.The combat engine to the horrid new UI to well just about everything.Those over the top flashy goofy effects and well the whole things just a mess..Im not even talking about the professions either they are just as horrid as the combat engine being used.So i dont see how Blix precu player/dev can do anything short of revamp.I just dont have as much hope he will change much being the powers that be wont let him..So id rather hear from SOE that a 3rd revamp is coming not what they can do to add back..3rd times a charm..
I dont think he is saying he can fix it. It almost sounds like that IS what he's saying, but i dont wanna put words in his mouth .just that some people shouldnt "unload their anger" on him cause he really doesnt deserve it cause he was against the changes too.
I wish blitz the best...but his job is as impossible as pre-cu server rollbacks as Dundee called it.(which isnt what anyone wants. I'm assuming he meant classic servers)
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
I do have a question though... although I do not know if you can answer it.
I have seen in a few of your posts that you refer to a Creative Director or lack there of. Now I have a few thoughts on this.
Was Raph made an exec. to move him from the project? In order to move the game in a different direction?
To me it dose not make a whole lot of sense to promote such a key position without having anyone in mind to replace them. My guess that that is your point. If so I would have to agree.
So my question is as far as you know SWG still dose not have it's own CD? In one of your posts you stated:
Cao has been the Studio Creative Director the whole time he's been there, dual-wielding as SWG's CD 'cause it needed one.
So we are talking years without a real CD?
After Raph left for San Diego I get the impression that development of practicly anything was kind of a free for all. Wether working on say rangers or a new quest. Due to lack of "vision"?
There are hundreds more questions i could ask..so if you are ever in phoenix hit me up I'll buy you a few beers :P
Who?
SOE: John (hand-job) Smedley
&
LAE: Julio (bend-over) Torres
Those are the two principle people behind the original Combat Dumb-Down and complete revamps of SWG. Truly, it started with patch 9 and then shortly there after came the mass exodus brought on by the CU.
"SWG was a world, now it's just a game" -adamrk-
"When the game was good, you didn't have to ask where the population was, because it was everywhere. When the game was good you didn't have to ask which server had population, because they all did. When the game was good you didn't have to beg friends to give it a try, because they were already playing. " - Salty Pete
Jeff Freeman
Not just posting a bit out of context, then saying what they think it means; but posting with a prelude, then out of context text with bold, italics and colors to emphasize what hadn't been emphasized, and concluded with statements that look like facts and sound like facts, to ensure that it can only be interpreted the way they want it to be interpreted.
If "lie" is too strong, misinterpretation is too weak. Particularly when the show is repeated... everywhere.
Jeff Freeman
Jeff Freeman