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General: The Return of the Saturday Debate

StraddenStradden Managing EditorHalifax, NSPosts: 6,696Member

The debates get back under way with a new one on the ethics of open PvP servers from Dave Bonnewell and Dan Fortier. Check back Saturdays for new debates and please, if you have anything you want discussed, let us know in the comment thread!




Dave Bonnewell: In the words of the late great writer/philosopher George Santayana, Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it. It is with this very reasoning in mind that we wish to revisit an event which sent shock waves throughout the online gaming community. It was six months ago in World of Warcraft's PvP Winterspring server that an in game virtual funeral being held for the real life death of a young WoW fan. This serene memorial was interrupted by a mass ganking of all 50 or so attendees by a less than serene 20 player Alliance guild calling them selves 'Serenity Now'.

The whole debate is here.

Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com

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Comments

  • AkunaiAkunai Silver Spring, MDPosts: 138Member

    I remember hearing about this, and I don't see what the debate is about.  It was a despicable act by people who wanted to do something despicable.  Should it have been allowed, or should there be some repercussion? 

    In an open PvP enviroment, it has to be allowed or else it wouldn't be open PvP.  If the devs wanted to institute some sort of "Holy Ground" system for events like this then fine, but until then people will have to deal with these kinds of things. 

    There can't be any repercussions for things like this because it would set a bad precedent.  Killing someone who is mourning the loss of a friend is obviously dishonorable, unless you're a sociopath.  Punishing players for something that is considered dishonorable would leave too much grey area though.  Attacking someone who was having an in-game wedding would also be dishonorable, but should that be punished too?  Those are decisions I'm sure the dev team or GMs wouldn't want to make.

    So in all, there is nothing to that can be done that wouldn't give rise to more problems.  That said, PvP servers are not a place for people who value honor or morality.  You'll only end up abandoning your honor and values or just becoming frustrated.  If you allow players to randomly kill people on the street, they will randomly kill people on the street.

  • LustmordLustmord Mt. Gilead, OHPosts: 1,095Member Uncommon

    I think it's funny.

    Is there anywhere we can get a video of it? Preferably on the Horde side, or whoever was getting ganked.

     

  • RyowulfRyowulf Greensburg, PAPosts: 668Member
    It is the nature of people to be jerks. If you are going to do this on
    a pvp server have it is a somewhat safe place or hire guards. Of course
    with a whole guild fighting even with guards it just would have been
    mass battle. The best plan would have been to make up 1st lvls on a pve
    server.



    Also I think wow is not pvp enough. Meaning you can't have in faction
    fighting. Finding themselves facing not only the other side but their
    own as well might have caused a different outcome for gankers.










  • InflictionInfliction Lake Stevens, WAPosts: 1,115Member

    Originally posted by Akunai

    Attacking someone who was having an in-game wedding would also be dishonorable

    I think having an in-game wedding would be dishonorable, except maybe if the two are a couple in life. Otherwise, I'd PK em in a heartbeat image


    image

  • HarafnirHarafnir VikingvillePosts: 1,324Member Uncommon

    If you bring real life seriousness into a game.... You will have to, no matter circumstances, count on that some people are still only playing a game. If you want as many guarantess as you can possibly get that people around you take real life seriousness serious.... Then do them in real life, not inside an entertainment venue.

    I think its a sick and twisted thing to do, sure.... But I am not surprised, and I am not exactly condemning it either. I have had two deaths in my social circle in the time I have been plahying WoW. Not one of them have I pulled into the game and its players, because I know it would not get the respect those people deserved, and I would be the one at fault for bringing thier lives and tragic ends to be a conversation piece inside a computer game.

    Both sides are at fault here. One did wrong yes.. but the other gave them the opportunity to do so, as well. They walked in to be targets, willingly.

    "This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
    It should be thrown with great force"

  • RainStarRainStar Florissant, MOPosts: 638Member

    Griefers are to be expected in any game no matter what the circumstances are surrounding events that are held.

    I don't understand why some people have so much fun bringing misery to others but that's life, virtual or real.

  • DAndersonJRDAndersonJR Bayville, NJPosts: 4Member

    I've read the editorial, and have read all of the comments based on that editorial, with a bit of confusion.  Are we really debating the morality of someone's actions on a PvP server?   Is that even possible to do?

    The folks who attacked the 'funeral' were in no way wrong.  I can't believe Bonnewell (I hope that's his name) was even a little serious?  Calling them all kind of names, including dishonorable, because they attacked other players on a PvP server is beyond my comprehension.

    Everyone, it's a game.  Gathering to mourn someone online is just strange.  In the real world, we attend funerals and wakes and send flowers and cards.  That's the appropriate forum for expressing condolences and grief over someone's tragic passing, especially the passing of young person.

    To hold a wake on a PvP server is stupifying to me.

    Bravo to those who were playing the game that evening, and not engaging in some odd mourning ritual.


  • OtizOtiz Jacksonville, FLPosts: 15Member

    Sorry.  I couldn't help but laugh at the mass ganking incident. 

    On a more serious note:  When an invdividual chooses to start an avatar on a PvP server isn't there a 'PvP Clause' that pops up WARNING players what type of server/shard they are choosing to play on?  I'm sure there is. 

    Anyway, I'm an avid fan of open PvP servers (I'm not a griefer btw) and enjoy the challenge of death being around every corner.  That's what I signed up for- the EXTRA danger, excitement, joy, pain, sorrow and whatever else that comes with that server.

    Thinking back to DAoC, I recall doing numerous EPIC fights and having rival guilds come to gank, grief, kill-steal and even harass the scheduled event.  Does the server Mordred ring a bell?  PvP is what you signed up for and that's what you should get- NON STOP!!! 

    Getting killed on horseback, on boat, immediately after teleporting or zoning into an area is the norm on PvP servers.  Besides, there are designated havens where PvP is not allowed.  Why not hold a funeral in that area instead of in an open field with full-fledged PvP?  Doesn't make sense to me- you are in a PvP area and you are subject to getting killed at ANY moment.

    Play smart and you won't have to worry about being/getting griefed.  I really do feel bad for the people that got killed while attending the funeral but come ON- in an open PvP area?  Sheesh. 

  • I think a lot of it has to do if you view your MMORPG and roleplaying games as a alternative life or as a game. A roleplaying game in itself is a bit of a oxymoron since a roleplay is designed to be a alternative life or situation simulation, while a game is designed to be something carefree where actions don't have consequences outside the game.

  • LostarLostar Johnstown, PAPosts: 901Member

    Some people just like drama to fall right on top of them. If you want a guaranteed peaceful funeral to pay respect to a friend then do it some place that is guarded by your faction and only discuss such events amongst your friends. Bringing such information to the public ( a time a place ) makes you a target. Do it on a non pvp server. Do it in you factions city. Do it in a very low traffic area. If you must, bring muscle. It was avoidable. The horde were taunting the alliance to attack them and/or naive enough to think they would get left alone.

    I know I'm not the only one that has noticed the WoW community is filled with the most annoying, disrespectful, ignorant, and childish individuals...heck most of them are kids.

    The Alliance were a bunch of jerks but the horde were the idiots in this situation.


  • MischiffMischiff lansing, MIPosts: 169Member
    Im confused, ive played on WOW for yrs, (Ursin PVP server) and to my knowledge, you can only PVP in certain zones. Why hold something like this or a wedding etc in a PVP zone ? Starter zones, where major cities are, you cant be attacked by the opp side unless you are flagged or attack first ... so there are places to hold such things and not worry about being PK'd IMHO.  Yeah I think its terrible if they knew what was going on and attacked everyone anyways, but I have to say, there are places to do such events and not worry about such things happening. image


  • damian7damian7 middle-of-notsosmartPosts: 4,449Member
    Dan Fortier: While we are taking a
    trip down memory lane let's revisit the other important facts in this
    case. First off they decided to hold a funeral in a PvP server and they
    were surprised someone attacked them? Even in the real world militants
    whose real life is jeopardy will defy convention to attack during so
    called 'time outs' so why is anyone shocked that a group of gamers who
    have nothing to lose would do the same given the opportunity?




    um... even terrorists recognize and stand down for things like ramadan. 

    terrorists, you know, suicide bombers, people that blow themselves up ALONG with their victims?  fanatical assassins?  real life "monsters" if you will.

    these weren't terrorists, they were little children/basement dwellers/idiotswithnolives that couldn't stfu for one bloody hour so someone could make a video to show the dead girl's parents?


    maybe people are shocked because well, it was immoral and unethical and yes some people in America still have both of those and would probably have kicked the living dog mess out of street trash that would do such a thing.



    could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?

  • DanmannDanmann Staff Writer Up North, WAPosts: 261Member



    Originally posted by damian7
    Dan Fortier: While we are taking a trip down memory lane let's revisit the other important facts in this case. First off they decided to hold a funeral in a PvP server and they were surprised someone attacked them? Even in the real world militants whose real life is jeopardy will defy convention to attack during so called 'time outs' so why is anyone shocked that a group of gamers who have nothing to lose would do the same given the opportunity?




    um... even terrorists recognize and stand down for things like ramadan. 

    terrorists, you know, suicide bombers, people that blow themselves up ALONG with their victims?  fanatical assassins?  real life "monsters" if you will
    .




    http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,,2-10-1460_2019174,00.html

    The answer to that would be a NO.

     

    Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the reviews of MMORPG.com or its management.

  • mindmeldmindmeld StockholmPosts: 226Member
    I can understand the why when it comes to holding the funeral ingame.

    But why not do it on a pve server then it wouldnt have been this messy.


    Problem with pvp server is that there is no community trying to prevent gankers in this kind of event or prevent low lvl gankiing close to towns at least in wow.

    l2 has worked that out better imo.
    I know that if i would have been playing on that pvv server i wouldnt have attacked but thats me.






    -Semper ubi sub ubi!
    always wear underwear

  • FergRedbeardFergRedbeard Springfield, MOPosts: 69Member

    Ok...is this "debate" for real?

    This has to be a joke?

    For the sake of 'who knows what' I will go ahead and try to formulate some sort of thought concerning this event.

    1- Games are for gaming.....not memorial services

    2- Find a freaking safe place like the throne room or something

    3- In the attempt to find an appropriate analogy...it would be like a bunch of Americans in the desert wastes of Iraq near the Iranian border having a funeral service.  The similarites start with the fact that peple are dumb creatures in the first place to do something so stupid and not to expect anything bad to happen.  The only difference being that when the terrorists attack those people...it is truly a tragedy because it's real.  This is a freaking game....

    aaahh...nevermind anything I said....I can't believe I'm wasting brain cells on this.  It's a game...on a pvp server.  Go somewhere else for your real life needs.  Don't bring your life in to the game and then expect everyone else to suddenly change the way the game is played to appease you.  If they did it would be nice...but to expect it is like waving your hand at the computer screen and thinking you actually have jedi powers while you say "You will not attack....You Will Not Attack....YOU WILL NOT AT.....*splat*  Why did they attack me?  Then your shoulder angels appear on your shoulders and both finally agree on one thing.....YOU'RE AN IDIOT!

    Disclaimer:  Not an idiot for having a memorial service or whatever...that's kinda nice in it's own right.  But to expect other people not to attack on a pvp server.

    Did these writers actually get paid for this debate?  Where do I sign up for that gig? j/k  The writers do a good job....I'm just jealous image

  • FergRedbeardFergRedbeard Springfield, MOPosts: 69Member
    A better debate would be to what extent does open PVP enhance or hinder the overall gaming experience.  In that kind of debate you could bring up this instance in your discussion...but to imply ethics in this current debate is silly.
  • Agent_X7Agent_X7 Staff Writer Endicott, NYPosts: 515Member
    I actually thought it was a very cool idea. Look at how much hate they have generated over this. It makes them villains in the classic sense. The "good guys" have too much respect and honor to attack even thier most hated enemy during a wedding or a funeral, but the "bad guys" have no such compunctions. If I wanted to roleplay an evil villain, I can think of no better way to generate infamy than disrupting a ceremony others consider sacred.

    And yes it is a game. And it took place on a PVP server. You would have to be extremely ignorant not to expect something like that, and extremely egotistical to think everyone else should behave the way you want them to.

    Agent_X7 AKA J Star
    [/URL]image
    Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of MMORPG.com or its management.

  • damian7damian7 middle-of-notsosmartPosts: 4,449Member

    Originally posted by Danmann
    Originally posted by damian7
    Dan Fortier: While we are taking a trip down memory lane let's revisit the other important facts in this case. First off they decided to hold a funeral in a PvP server and they were surprised someone attacked them? Even in the real world militants whose real life is jeopardy will defy convention to attack during so called 'time outs' so why is anyone shocked that a group of gamers who have nothing to lose would do the same given the opportunity?




    um... even terrorists recognize and stand down for things like ramadan. 

    terrorists, you know, suicide bombers, people that blow themselves up ALONG with their victims?  fanatical assassins?  real life "monsters" if you will
    .


    http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,,2-10-1460_2019174,00.html

    The answer to that would be a NO.

     





     after reading that article... doesn't sound like actual terrorists, sounds more along the lines of freedom fighters or rebels (depending on your point of view).  thought i might've missed it, so i did a control+f and couldn't get past "ter"... the word terrorist/terorist/or any other typo i could think of appears to be NOT on this page.



    so what do rebels/freedom fighters/whatever they're called, have to do with terrorists and terrorism?


    but, thanks for playing.  you may pick up your sign on your way out the door. 



    could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?

  • RatsuranRatsuran Anchorage, AKPosts: 4Member

    I think if the deceased could back and comment on this issue, the comment would be not to waste your time worrying about the "ethics" of computer games, because, eventually, you frigging die, and you'll want that time back.

  • JuiceboxJuicebox Port Stanley, ONPosts: 16Member
    I, like many others here, find this 'debate' quite comical. But
    remember one thing... Common sense isn't that common anymore. I live by
    that saying, and it gives me the ability to accept that some people
    really are that stupid! Really.. think about it. Think about how many
    times you've ran into stupid people, or friends, or family with no
    common sense at all. The hardest thing to do is accept it, that some
    people really are that stupid.



    When it comes to holding an in-game funeral on an open pvp server and
    holding it in a pvp-able zone? Again.. common sense just isn't that
    common.



    If I had a friend die, and they loved money, and loved it in a busy
    downtown street... do you think I could drop a $50 bill let alone a $20
    or less, right on the floor or on a table without someone picking it
    up?? Then if I were to complain about it.. well.. I'd have no common
    sense.



    Sure, death is never a happy thing, and when its someone you knew from
    an online game, face it. There really is a connection people have with
    online friends. But to do the above mentioned, get ganked, and then
    piss and moan about it... is just like complaining that because you
    left your d**k hanging out of your pants, and got it caught in the
    zipper when you zipped up.



    Don't comapre what happened in game with what's going on with the war.
    In a game where you just pop right back up compared to something where
    your friends and family are shipped home in boxes if there's enough of
    them left... that's just sad and you should be damn ashamed of yourself
    for it.



    A game is a game, and just like the real world, if you have no common sense, you have nothing to complain about.




  • hashdhhashdh Columbus, OHPosts: 8Member
    i remember the whole ordeal and watched the whole thing unfold on the forums.

    they ANNOUNCED that they would be holding a funeral for someone openly on the forums, then added "i hope no one screws this up". i in some ways, its almost as if they wanted things to go down this way, or, they should of kept their mouths shut.

    kudos to the ppl that show the server what world pvp is about, its bloodshed and slaughter, and not only when you feel like it. if you want that option, roll on a "normal" server. ever since the honor system/bgs got added to wow, real pvp has been non-existant, anything that puts the pvp back into the pvp servers im for.

    boo to the morons trying to make this a legit debate, this is just silly. the whole incident was over an IN GAME FUNERAL. ive been gaming since i came out of the womb, was lucky enough to grow up with the birth of pv's and home gaming systems (colecovision ftw), and game a good deal on a daily basis now that im "old". as much as i like gaming, if my friends give me an in-game funeral when i pass on, i swear im coming back from the dead to kick some ass. this is a video game world, not a real funeral, get over it already.
  • RikkorRikkor AdelaidePosts: 12Member

    I wonder how many people who attended that online funeral have given other people on non-pvp servers shtick about being carebears, and now look who suffered... sad but poetic justice in a sick way.

    As long as some now understand that a pvp server is just that, and your pulling your penis to think there's any type of honor in a online videogame, then at least some learnt from it.

    RIP whoevers memory it was they were meant to be honoring.

  • damian7damian7 middle-of-notsosmartPosts: 4,449Member

    Originally posted by Ratsuran
    I think if the deceased could back and comment on this issue, the comment would be not to waste your time worrying about the "ethics" of computer games, because, eventually, you frigging die, and you'll want that time back.
    thing is, it's not a big deal.  that's why it became a big deal.  just common decency says to let it happen and show a little respect.  total lack of common decency, plus making a video saying "yeah, we're total a holes, deal with it", is what makes it a big deal.  the anonymity of the internet should give way to things like... on 'jay and silent bob strike back'... what'd they do to everyone that talked smack about them on the internet?   we need a LOT more of that, to put trash back where it belongs.


    could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?

  • VociferorVociferor DunfermlinePosts: 98Member

    "Dan Fortier: While we are taking a trip down memory lane let's revisit the other important facts in this case. First off they decided to hold a funeral in a PvP server and they were surprised someone attacked them? Even in the real world militants whose real life is jeopardy will defy convention to attack during so called 'time outs' so why is anyone shocked that a group of gamers who have nothing to lose would do the same given the opportunity?"

    Yes that statement is quite true, one incident that springs to mind is that of a certain famous American before he became numero uno ordering the slaughtering of the Hessians while they were busy getting drunk at Christmas in Trenton, 1776. 

    Normal ethical conventions of morality have to be suspended during times of war.  The systems of honour that some create and expect others to abide arise as an attempt to create some sort of order, some new ethical system within an entirely new value system to try and make sense of a more chaotic and unpredictable form of being.  But, there will always be people that will exploit these new ethical systems just as surely as there are people that exploit our everyday ideas of morality.  You could say it is even more likely that those systems be abused when you consider the elevated consequences of winning or losing.

    However, I don't think you can, as someone else argued rightly, make the comparison between real world conflicts and in game conflicts.  If I lose a contest in game you're not gonna castrate me, enslave my children, rape my women and burn my home etc etc. Therefore in terms of ethics those two types of action can not be compared fairly in my opinion.



    Originally posted by hashdh

    they ANNOUNCED that they would be holding a funeral for someone openly on the forums, then added "i hope no one screws this up". i in some ways, its almost as if they wanted things to go down this way, or, they should of kept their mouths shut.

    boo to the morons trying to make this a legit debate, this is just silly. the whole incident was over an IN GAME FUNERAL....



    Can anyone provide some sort of confirmation other than just their word on the fact that this was announced to everyone before hand?  If you were going to draw some sort of ethical conclusion then you would definately have to know without a doubt that the 'gankers' knew the people were there to hold some sort of memorial.  If the 'gankers' knew that it was a funeral to commemorate a player who died in real life then I think you would be hard pushed not to condemn the actions as immoral.  These may be virtual games but they do not exist independantly of the 'real' world or of our notions of morality.

    With regard to "boo..." I dont see anything silly or moronic at all with holding an in game memorial to a friend/player that died.  I mean it's not like this sort of thing is rare in the real world.  I can think of numerous occasions that I've been to or watched sports matches on T.V. where they have held a 1 minute's silence before the game commenced to honour a dead colleague. 

    It is just a normal and healthy ritual in the way people grieve the loss of an acquaintance.  With the distances involved and the amount of time people spend in online games you can forge deep friendships with people half way around the globe, not everyone can go physically to a funeral of a dead friend/guildie.  Therefore an in game memorial can be a touching and worthy eulogy to the deceased.

    However, with that said, as others comment I agree that it does seem a bit foolish and/or naive to have held it in an area that was open PvP if as claimed there were other areas on the server that were 'safe'.  I mean what was the reasoning? The guy shooting the video wanted a more scenic background or something equally as frivolous? 

    When you've taken away the threat of physical retribution and have given someone anonymity then you can't rely on their integrity/honour in the same way that you could in a real world situation.  The fact that it was a game though does not mean the actions were a-moral, that is to say, not based on moral standards or ethically value-less.

    EDIT: My American History has let me down :P Changing 'Redcoats' to 'Hessians' as it was mostly germanic mercenaries that were fighting for the Brits that were garrisoned in Trenton.

  • ikusaikusa wilkes barre, PAPosts: 1Member
    PvP server= gank or be ganked no room for carebears. Im not at all surprized ally would do something like this its there style low down dishonorable and takes no skill yep prime pally pvp.
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