Originally posted by DAndersonJR Everyone, it's a game. Gathering to mourn someone online is just strange. In the real world, we attend funerals and wakes and send flowers and cards. That's the appropriate forum for expressing condolences and grief over someone's tragic passing, especially the passing of young person.
To hold a wake on a PvP server is stupifying to me.
Except these people may not of had the means, or the information, to attend this players real-life funeral. People deal with grief differnent ways and I suppose these players dealt with their grief by holding an online funeral. Maybe they just wanted to do something and have everyone who knew the guy envolved with something.
This wasn't any ordinary circumstances. For these players this wasn't a game at the time, maybe they were dealing with grief, or mourning or trying to shake off feelings. But for whatever reason the game sorta became real-life. And then when you had people disrupting the funeral they took it as an offence.
Originally posted by damian7 Originally posted by Danmann Originally posted by damian7 Dan Fortier: While we are taking a trip down memory lane let's revisit the other important facts in this case. First off they decided to hold a funeral in a PvP server and they were surprised someone attacked them? Even in the real world militants whose real life is jeopardy will defy convention to attack during so called 'time outs' so why is anyone shocked that a group of gamers who have nothing to lose would do the same given the opportunity?
um... even terrorists recognize and stand down for things like ramadan.
terrorists, you know, suicide bombers, people that blow themselves up ALONG with their victims? fanatical assassins? real life "monsters" if you will.
after reading that article... doesn't sound like actual terrorists, sounds more along the lines of freedom fighters or rebels (depending on your point of view). thought i might've missed it, so i did a control+f and couldn't get past "ter"... the word terrorist/terorist/or any other typo i could think of appears to be NOT on this page.
so what do rebels/freedom fighters/whatever they're called, have to do with terrorists and terrorism?
but, thanks for playing. you may pick up your sign on your way out the door.
Uh, what one side calls "freedom fighters" the other side calls "terrorists". You may pick up your sign on the way out as well.
Agent_X7 AKA J Star [/URL] Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of MMORPG.com or its management.
Originally posted by Ratsuran I think if the deceased could back and comment on this issue, the comment would be not to waste your time worrying about the "ethics" of computer games, because, eventually, you frigging die, and you'll want that time back.
thing is, it's not a big deal. that's why it became a big deal. just common decency says to let it happen and show a little respect. total lack of common decency, plus making a video saying "yeah, we're total a holes, deal with it", is what makes it a big deal. the anonymity of the internet should give way to things like... on 'jay and silent bob strike back'... what'd they do to everyone that talked smack about them on the internet? we need a LOT more of that, to put trash back where it belongs.
We need a lot more physical violence as a reaction to free speech? The reason that scene was funny is because it was such a ridiculous over-reaction to something so petty. Now, I think most people would agree that what happened was in bad taste, but the bottom line is that an online warthog slaughter simulator isn't a healthy place to conduct mourning, nor should it come with any expectations of immunity for any reason.
While I can appreciate the in game mourning of a friend who passed away irl...
Come on, who would organize a peaceful ceremony in a pvp zone? Those servers are there for a reason and everyone knows what the purpose of Player Versus Player zones are. While I think that actions may have been a bit on the harsh side, pvp can be a harsh place for those not properly equipped and motivated.
I really cant understand why the "ethics" of pvp should be questioned or defined here. There is only one rule for pvp zones: Kill or be killed.
You may want to set up your own little ground rules with a group of friends, but nobody is actually required to honor those personal rules, (especially if they are not your friends).
The term "Player Versus Player Zone" is extremely informative, and gives you all the information that you need just with the title. There are no "ethics" or "rules" when it comes to those areas. If you dont agree with the premise behind it, simply dont enter, or find a game that does not enable pvp..
I think it's a little funny that so many are saying that it's just a game so don't do anything so serious, or don't take it so seriously. Then the same people are saying that it's a real war, and in wars there isn't room for morality.
It's either an insignificant game or a real down and out war, pretty sure it can't be both. A bit convenient to think of it just as a game when you do something to make you look like an ahole, but then think of it as a war to justify your actions. The funeral was attacked with the express purpose of being aholes, from their own statements. So if you want to back them up, don't kid yourself, you're an ahole by association. I don't see why it would be so hard for someone to restrain themselves from disrupting the funeral of an RL person for 1hour out of 1day. It takes a certain type to not be able to stay away from a funeral. Rationalize it all you want, fact remains that they had the choice to walk by this girl's grave, join the service, or spit on her grave. They chose to knowingly spit, personally I would've walked by.
I know someone might say it is a game and a war, but in a game-war there are lines you don't cross without branding yourself as dishonorable. Spawn camping, griefing, speed hacks, etc etc and we all know what those lines are so don't act like it's a new concept to have honor in online PvP. If you want to align yourself with the honorless, that is your prerogative. If you're having trouble with what honor is or isn't, look it up.
On a sidenote, I don't usually wish death on people, but I make the exception for those who devalue the lives of others. I don't know if anyone here, or those involved in the event, are or were making light of the girl's death....but if they are or were...I hope they stop breathing...I hope very hard.
i'd just like to point out something GLARINGLY OBVIOUS to ANYONE that's actually watched the little video that the people who did the disrupting said IN THEIR VIDEO.....
they stated something along the lines of "yeah, we're a holes, hate us, we don't care, we did it just to be a holes."
they did NOT do it for honor points they did NOT do it because they were alliance ganking horde enemies they did NOT do it for pretty much any reason people defending them in this thread (including the mmorpg rep) have stated.
they PLAINLY stated that the only reason they did it was to grief and be jerks.
so, as long as we're talking about that one incident... no, they didn't do it for any ingame reason that you people have said... they did it ONLY because well... picture "make love not warcraft" from south park... now, that's the people that did it...
"he must've played every hour of every day since the servers have been up."
"he must have no life"
"how do you kill that which has no life..."
you do it the jay & silent bob way, of course... you go knock on the door and beat the dog poo out of them.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by damian7 i'd just like to point out something GLARINGLY OBVIOUS to ANYONE that's actually watched the little video that the people who did the disrupting said IN THEIR VIDEO.....
they stated something along the lines of "yeah, we're a holes, hate us, we don't care, we did it just to be a holes."
they did NOT do it for honor points they did NOT do it because they were alliance ganking horde enemies they did NOT do it for pretty much any reason people defending them in this thread (including the mmorpg rep) have stated.
they PLAINLY stated that the only reason they did it was to grief and be jerks.
so, as long as we're talking about that one incident... no, they didn't do it for any ingame reason that you people have said... they did it ONLY because well... picture "make love not warcraft" from south park... now, that's the people that did it...
"he must've played every hour of every day since the servers have been up."
"he must have no life"
"how do you kill that which has no life..."
you do it the jay & silent bob way, of course... you go knock on the door and beat the dog poo out of them.
The "rep" did not give a reason for them doing anything. He merely stated that it makes them villains, which - by thier own admission of just wanting to cause trouble - is what they were going for.
vil?lain? /?v?l?n/ [vil-uhn]
noun
1.
a cruelly malicious person who is involved in or devoted to wickedness or crime; scoundrel.
2.
a character in a play, novel, or the like, who constitutes an important evil agency in the plot.
Agent_X7 AKA J Star [/URL] Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of MMORPG.com or its management.
Originally posted by damian7 i'd just like to point out something GLARINGLY OBVIOUS to ANYONE that's actually watched the little video that the people who did the disrupting said IN THEIR VIDEO.....
they stated something along the lines of "yeah, we're a holes, hate us, we don't care, we did it just to be a holes."
they did NOT do it for honor points they did NOT do it because they were alliance ganking horde enemies they did NOT do it for pretty much any reason people defending them in this thread (including the mmorpg rep) have stated.
they PLAINLY stated that the only reason they did it was to grief and be jerks.
so, as long as we're talking about that one incident... no, they didn't do it for any ingame reason that you people have said... they did it ONLY because well... picture "make love not warcraft" from south park... now, that's the people that did it...
"he must've played every hour of every day since the servers have been up."
"he must have no life"
"how do you kill that which has no life..."
you do it the jay & silent bob way, of course... you go knock on the door and beat the dog poo out of them.
Yes, because it's honorable to seek physical retribution for something that happened in a game.
Do you seriously believe that garbage? If you honestly believe what you are posting, you are the definition of a terrorist. I'll take the game gankers over the idea of causing physical harm to folks for something intangible any day.
Maybe I misread the title... but I thought this was supposed to be about "Open PvP"? Perhaps you guys have redefined the term "open" to mean "faction-based". Last I heard and experienced WoW does not HAVE an open PvP server... because they will never let my dwarf kill and elf.
That said, this debate really was not about Open PvP, but if it HAD been, then the outcome would have been... "Open PvP helps regulate its player-base." You see, in an event like the one you mentioned I bet it was not just the Horde who were upset, I gather several Alliance clans thought poorly of the guild as well. But, what can the alliance do about it? Nothing... because the PvP is not open. You can be standing right next to a complete idiot who just needs to shut up and have NO ability to stop him... because its not open PvP.
If you want to debate this issue, I would suggest looking at some games with TRULY open PvP, or perhaps looking at areas where the lack of such a system is noticeable.
I am a little disappointed with MMORPG, of all the issues out there, this is the best you could come up with?
Bring it up a notch guys, debates should be about something meaningful that WE the PLAYERS are concerned or passionate about. With that said, I will feed your troll -
1. Open PvP - Your character/avitar (whatever) in a PvP area, can and will be killed anywhere at anytime for any or no reason. Any Questions? Something Unclear?
2. Real-Life - That's the side of the screen where you sit. I know some get confused.
3. Ethics - Basically a system of morals, rules of conduct etc... See Number 1, thats the expected conduct, morals are for Real-life, check where your sitting first so you know.
NEVER should you be emotionally moved in ANYWAY by what happens on the other side of the screen, other then the occational "dang". If you are anymore affected then this, look at where you are sitting, and realize where you are, Real-Life. I assure you, Real-Life is the ULTIMATE Game.
P.S. Dave - Median? Well.. you'll figure it out.
Flame On!!!
"I may disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
I feel for the people who put this memorial service together, it was a good thing. That said, holding it in a PvP zone was bad planning, and they should have expected the outcome. PvP is just that, many play by honor, many play purely to grief - we don't have "grief free PvP". I learned to love PvP games with SB, which I played since it's beginning. I miss the excitement of never knowing if you'd be ganked at any given moment. There were some guilds that held events like weddings, plays etc - they did it in the safety of their guild city or in a safe hold. Common sense tells you that if you are in the middle of a PvP area, you will be attacked. That is the law of the land. A bunch of knights hold a service and a bunch of theives and bandits attack - what's the suprise. Kudos for the thought behind the service, but WOW, what a bad idea to hold it where they did.
Now, to topic, I thought this was a debate about open PvP. I would love to see an article/debate on this issue.
Ethics? On a PvP server? Whatever. The whole point of open PvP is to attack when the odds are in your favor. Holding a funeral in a vulnerable location is a nice notion, but extremely ignorant. There are plenty of safe places to do such a thing, even on the pvp servers. You might as well try having a tea party in the center of wsg. Just not too smart.
If you want serious time, that's cool, do it where you cant get messed with, otherwise you WILL get messed with.
And this wasnt a debate. Guys, take some english classes before writing another one of these articles. In a debate, the two of you should be taking OPPOSITE sides, not agreeing with each other. You're just going to end up debating your readers when you do that. That's about as silly as holding a serious memorial service in a pvp zone.
Originally posted by Vinadil Maybe I misread the title... but I thought this was supposed to be about "Open PvP"? Perhaps you guys have redefined the term "open" to mean "faction-based". Last I heard and experienced WoW does not HAVE an open PvP server... because they will never let my dwarf kill and elf. That said, this debate really was not about Open PvP, but if it HAD been, then the outcome would have been... "Open PvP helps regulate its player-base." You see, in an event like the one you mentioned I bet it was not just the Horde who were upset, I gather several Alliance clans thought poorly of the guild as well. But, what can the alliance do about it? Nothing... because the PvP is not open. You can be standing right next to a complete idiot who just needs to shut up and have NO ability to stop him... because its not open PvP. If you want to debate this issue, I would suggest looking at some games with TRULY open PvP, or perhaps looking at areas where the lack of such a system is noticeable.
excellent points.
personally, i enjoyed the PVP that existed back in the early dread-lord days of UO.
for the first week i played, i thought there was some uber npc that would hang just outside the brit guard range and whose only goal in life was to gank me. finally, i went a different direction to leave brit. a few days later, i realized it was a "red", a pk, not an npc. by 'realized', i mean i finally found out what that was/meant.
joined a guild, which was part of a group of guilds. we grew, a lot. months pass. one day i was out on my bard/tamer alt, taming bears and singing songs. this new pk'er, baron sengir, came and ganked me.
my mission now was to kill him, just cuz. FINALLY someone found him and i went there, ganked him, and had to call others to help me loot. he had all sorts of invul armor, weapons of vanquishing, etc that he was carrying to his house i suppose.
more months pass, eq is rumored to be out soon (came out probably about six months later), anywho, i declare war on all of baja. a lot of guilds accept the war. now, we have to gather together in groups in order for ONE of us to go to the bank. of course, they drop off whatever and we end up just killing and being killed for quite some time.
OPEN pvp... i.e. if you're at war with someone or you leave "protected city areas'... it can be a LOT of fun. it's not for loners, or the people that like to play MMOs like they're single player games. but if you have fun grouping with folks, it's a million times better than farming an instance over and over, farming a raid boss over and over, or just doing ANYTHING repeatedly for months on end.
a sidenote - honor.
not the caca system in wow, but actual honor.
the samurai have that long extensive code, which also includes suicide before dishonor, essentially. it's interesting to note that this code did not come into being until after decades (if not a century or two) of peace in the land because of the samurai and their masters. during time of peace, they came up with all this honor code 'stuff'.
strangely enough, i equate that to any and all games you can play online. YOU, yourself, are in no immediate danger, ever. there is no reason to not be honorable, to some extent. in uo, we had areas that we "claimed" and we would kill everyone that came into our area. normally we wouldn't loot them, we'd let them get their stuff and leave. if they chose to stay (normally to tell us that it WASN'T our area) or talk smack, we'd kill them and take their stuff in order to reaffirm that they were incorrect in their thinking--an attempt to get their minds right.
there is no mmorpg out there where you HAVE to kill nonstop and you would not enjoy the game or be able to live with yourself if you weren't playing every waking minute, or you can't just NOT be an a hole for one day. if that is you, then you're just a sad pathetic little nothing. don't care if you live in mommy's basement, if you're the ceo of enron, if you're some teen-age punk in a rebellious stage... doesn't matter... if that does describe you and you have so little control over yourself and you're so demanding of YOUR rights... you have serious issues and a few months of being bubba's wife in jail will more than make your mind right.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by Ratsuran Originally posted by damian7 Originally posted by Ratsuran I think if the deceased could back and comment on this issue, the comment would be not to waste your time worrying about the "ethics" of computer games, because, eventually, you frigging die, and you'll want that time back.
thing is, it's not a big deal. that's why it became a big deal. just common decency says to let it happen and show a little respect. total lack of common decency, plus making a video saying "yeah, we're total a holes, deal with it", is what makes it a big deal. the anonymity of the internet should give way to things like... on 'jay and silent bob strike back'... what'd they do to everyone that talked smack about them on the internet? we need a LOT more of that, to put trash back where it belongs.
We need a lot more physical violence as a reaction to free speech? The reason that scene was funny is because it was such a ridiculous over-reaction to something so petty. Now, I think most people would agree that what happened was in bad taste, but the bottom line is that an online warthog slaughter simulator isn't a healthy place to conduct mourning, nor should it come with any expectations of immunity for any reason.
free speech is not a 'you can't touch me' card in order to be a jerk. free speech only exists because valiant men gave their lives in defense of their country. normal every day joes became extraordinary heroes when the test of courage and bravery faced them and they would lay their lives on the line in hopes of a better life for the future generation.
do not ever think to use 'free speech' to condone bigotry, hate, or anything that could remotely be considered evil. i know some do. but there's a lot of idiots in the world, and even more cattle. free speech is so that you can say, "hey, the governor is doing us wrong, here's why, here's the facts." and not have to worry about the gestapo killing you and your family.
but, i do hope that the nazis take over your town and show you what protecting their free speech wins you. i'll give you a hint.... germany in the 1940s....
but, the ironic part of it all... lots of 'big bad menz' online would never be so bold if they didn't have the anonymity of the internet to hide themselves like little children. just sit and think about all the things that WOULDN'T go on, online, in games, if people knew where you lived.
why is that? oh yeah, because you might irk a big dude that comes to your house and stomps a mudhole in your face. then you could call the cops and say "yes, i exercised my free speech and cussed him out online for half a day and was a total jerk to everyone i saw because I CAN." and they'll say, "take your sign, move along".
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by Lucrecia Some people just like drama to fall right on top of them. If you want a guaranteed peaceful funeral to pay respect to a friend then do it some place that is guarded by your faction and only discuss such events amongst your friends. Bringing such information to the public ( a time a place ) makes you a target. Do it on a non pvp server. Do it in you factions city. Do it in a very low traffic area. If you must, bring muscle. It was avoidable. The horde were taunting the alliance to attack them and/or naive enough to think they would get left alone.
I know I'm not the only one that has noticed the WoW community is filled with the most annoying, disrespectful, ignorant, and childish individuals...heck most of them are kids.
The Alliance were a bunch of jerks but the horde were the idiots in this situation.
But the player who had died had choosen to play on PVP server. In a sense, doesn't this event kind of honor that choice?
The only reason that guild rolled that service was to be assholes plain and simple. They didn't start claiming they were doing it for the sake of world pvp or any other rightous reason until the huge fallout came and they got a lot more then they bargained for. Being on a PvP server does not mean you have to behave like a jerk but unfortunately it attracts them like maggots to shit.
How much more real life can you get than Serenity Now playing terrorists. It's very disturbing to me that anyone would even consider it, given our real world situation. But then, we all know that people aren't as honorable and decent as they like to pretend they are, or even think they are.
And, it's why I won't play an open PvP game. I can't handle the frustration of being around that many jerks.
I've already posted so I apologise but I feel that I should post again in response to the people that are having some trouble relating events on a PvP server with real world morality.
The reason that allows us to make an ethical analysis of these actions is twofold. Firstly, based on the fact that the 'gankers' knew that it was a funeral. Secondly, that the events were not independant from the real world and were not just concerned with actions/events in the game.
I can understand your desire or intuition to say that ethics have no place in a pvp server of a game. This has some truth to it I grant you. However, the difference with this case and any normal day to day goings on in the server is that the players ceased to be just x number of players on a pvp server going about a fantasy 'life' and as someone claimed they announced that fact. It wasnt x number of avatars standing together in a virtual world, it was x number of people sitting behind monitors at their computers mourning the death of a friend/guildie in the real world.
(Still waiting for some further proof of the announcement though as it is a major condition in the moral judgement).
The way the funeral was conducted (in an open pvp zone) may be questioned in terms of prudence that is true, but that prudence, or lack of, does not effect the ethical value of the actions of the people that ganked them, it just allowed something that need not have happened to have the possibility of being.
So if, as I said in the last post, we could be 100% without a doubt that the actions were intended to maliciously disrupt a memorial for the death of someone in the real world, then I really think you would be hard pushed to argue the actions as not being immoral.
It ceased to be just x number of pixels and code in a pvp server of a game but real people with real feelings. That is the difference. The lack of prudence of those actions on behalf of the mourners does not grant the 'gankers' ethical immunity if they were aware of the reason the people were gathered.
Moreover, I'm fairly confident that if the people that did this were honest with us and honest with themselves that they would regret doing it. I'm sure in the dark hours of the night when their consciences' awaken that it will have cost them some sleep. Only someone without a conscience, if that is even possible, could claim that they have not at any time doubted the morality of their actions in that situation.
Originally posted by Ratsuran I think if the deceased could back and comment on this issue, the comment would be not to waste your time worrying about the "ethics" of computer games, because, eventually, you frigging die, and you'll want that time back.
thing is, it's not a big deal. that's why it became a big deal. just common decency says to let it happen and show a little respect. total lack of common decency, plus making a video saying "yeah, we're total a holes, deal with it", is what makes it a big deal. the anonymity of the internet should give way to things like... on 'jay and silent bob strike back'... what'd they do to everyone that talked smack about them on the internet? we need a LOT more of that, to put trash back where it belongs.
We need a lot more physical violence as a reaction to free speech? The reason that scene was funny is because it was such a ridiculous over-reaction to something so petty. Now, I think most people would agree that what happened was in bad taste, but the bottom line is that an online warthog slaughter simulator isn't a healthy place to conduct mourning, nor should it come with any expectations of immunity for any reason.
free speech is not a 'you can't touch me' card in order to be a jerk. free speech only exists because valiant men gave their lives in defense of their country. normal every day joes became extraordinary heroes when the test of courage and bravery faced them and they would lay their lives on the line in hopes of a better life for the future generation.
do not ever think to use 'free speech' to condone bigotry, hate, or anything that could remotely be considered evil. i know some do. but there's a lot of idiots in the world, and even more cattle. free speech is so that you can say, "hey, the governor is doing us wrong, here's why, here's the facts." and not have to worry about the gestapo killing you and your family.
but, i do hope that the nazis take over your town and show you what protecting their free speech wins you. i'll give you a hint.... germany in the 1940s....
but, the ironic part of it all... lots of 'big bad menz' online would never be so bold if they didn't have the anonymity of the internet to hide themselves like little children. just sit and think about all the things that WOULDN'T go on, online, in games, if people knew where you lived.
why is that? oh yeah, because you might irk a big dude that comes to your house and stomps a mudhole in your face. then you could call the cops and say "yes, i exercised my free speech and cussed him out online for half a day and was a total jerk to everyone i saw because I CAN." and they'll say, "take your sign, move along".
First of all, you automatically lose any credibility for relating anything that happens in an MMO to the horrors of Nazi fascism in WW2. Second of all, you don't have to condone bigotry and hateful speech to believe that people have the right to voice their opinion, regardless of whether or not you feel that opinion is barbaric, idiotic or what have you. What do you propose as an alternative? Oh yes, I forgot. Releasing everyone's addresses so you can go stomp the life out of Goku_warrior_86 because he called you a "n008". Sweet ass plan broseph, I don't see any problems with it. Pause. Notttttt.
Obviously the ones so vociferously and vehemently defending the actions of those who only want to cause grife,strife and pain on others have no cares for others.
This event was a memorial and was most definately The people behind the screens with real emotions.
What do you call people who go out of there way to make others lives miserable?
In the games their griefers and gankers. In real life their called bullies.
I was playing on a PvP server when that garbage went down. You can keep your Open-PvP mentality.
After being in the service and serving in a number of operations yes you focus in the midst of sometimes overwhelming stupidity in stressful situations. People play games to escape and enjoy themselves. Over time people can and sometimes do make friends. When a good friend passes away for me in real life i honor them to the best of their wishes(if known).
To put it another way if you came to a memorial service of one of my friends that has passed and attempted anything even remotely close to that plain and simple someones going to the hospital.
Originally posted by rakshasha Obviously the ones so vociferously and vehemently defending the actions of those who only want to cause grife,strife and pain on others have no cares for others.
It was a little unclear to me at a first glance as you seemed to imply by an allusion that I was defending those people so...
...I'll take the use of 'vociferously' there as either a coincidence or the fact that you agree with my post and not insult you by asking if you read it.
Humans are intrinsically evil and expecting in-game behaviour to be any different is symptomatic of an arrogantly dissassociated attitude that I find offensive. Anyone living in such a fluffy Disney Land that can be offended by this should go out and see how f*d up the real world is and put their energies in to fighting a worthwhile fight.
First off I want to say Dan Fortier's comments were cold, inconsiderate and rather callous. It is beyond absurd to compare a pvp server to "real world militants". It's a game, the pvp aspect is a game, this person's death was real and Dan's comments, to me, were trivializing her funeral.
I attended an ingame funeral in EQ1 for the death of a long term guild leader, guildmate and friend. So I know full well that at that time it wasn't about the game, it was people who knew her getting to together to mourn, share stores and comfort each other.
If it had been a lone person coming in and disrupting the funeral, it could be blown off as one bad apple as the saying goes. The fact that a guild participated, knowingly, makes it .. well, to say "disrespectful" is putting it mildly. What I really want to say would be bleeped out on this forum.
What Serenity Now did was uncalled for, immature, poorly-thought out and a multitude of other things. I can only hope that they got ganked/griefed daily for months, to hammer home what they did was Wrong. I am not even sure who is worse, the inconsiderate people who did this or people like Dan Fortier who rationalize it by saying "well it's a pvp server". I get disgusted with people who act like a**holes and then try to hide under the "I was roleplaying" or "it's a pvp server and they are The Enemy" mentality.
here's the video for whoever wanted it. it's shot from the Serenity Now guild point of view.
And BTW if someone is going to have an ingame event on an open PvP server they need to have some sort of defense against griefers and gankers. I remember in my old SWG server when we had an even, wether guild or server-wide, we had a whole team or two of people just defending it making sure nobody was going to start fighting (we always held em in pvpmode). You play a game for the alternate lifestyle of the game, therefore you must live with the game (ie gankers and griefers) instead of the game living with you (ie players leaving you alone).
Currently Playing: Tabula Rasa Gaming History: EQ, EQ2, SWG, EVE, Anarchy Online, CoX, GW, SRO, Rakion, Ryzom, WoW, Rappelz, Shadowbane, 9Dragons, DAoC, Dungeon Runners, DnD Online, Space Cowboy, LotRO, Vanguard, Fury, Hellgate Wanting to Play: WAR, TCoS, Darkfall, Aion
Comments
This wasn't any ordinary circumstances. For these players this wasn't a game at the time, maybe they were dealing with grief, or mourning or trying to shake off feelings. But for whatever reason the game sorta became real-life. And then when you had people disrupting the funeral they took it as an offence.
It is an interesting thing to read about.
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,,2-10-1460_2019174,00.html
The answer to that would be a NO.
after reading that article... doesn't sound like actual terrorists, sounds more along the lines of freedom fighters or rebels (depending on your point of view). thought i might've missed it, so i did a control+f and couldn't get past "ter"... the word terrorist/terorist/or any other typo i could think of appears to be NOT on this page.
so what do rebels/freedom fighters/whatever they're called, have to do with terrorists and terrorism?
but, thanks for playing. you may pick up your sign on your way out the door.
Uh, what one side calls "freedom fighters" the other side calls "terrorists". You may pick up your sign on the way out as well.
Agent_X7 AKA J Star
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Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of MMORPG.com or its management.
We need a lot more physical violence as a reaction to free speech? The reason that scene was funny is because it was such a ridiculous over-reaction to something so petty. Now, I think most people would agree that what happened was in bad taste, but the bottom line is that an online warthog slaughter simulator isn't a healthy place to conduct mourning, nor should it come with any expectations of immunity for any reason.
While I can appreciate the in game mourning of a friend who passed away irl...
Come on, who would organize a peaceful ceremony in a pvp zone? Those servers are there for a reason and everyone knows what the purpose of Player Versus Player zones are. While I think that actions may have been a bit on the harsh side, pvp can be a harsh place for those not properly equipped and motivated.
I really cant understand why the "ethics" of pvp should be questioned or defined here. There is only one rule for pvp zones: Kill or be killed.
You may want to set up your own little ground rules with a group of friends, but nobody is actually required to honor those personal rules, (especially if they are not your friends).
The term "Player Versus Player Zone" is extremely informative, and gives you all the information that you need just with the title. There are no "ethics" or "rules" when it comes to those areas. If you dont agree with the premise behind it, simply dont enter, or find a game that does not enable pvp..
I think it's a little funny that so many are saying that it's just a game so don't do anything so serious, or don't take it so seriously. Then the same people are saying that it's a real war, and in wars there isn't room for morality.
It's either an insignificant game or a real down and out war, pretty sure it can't be both. A bit convenient to think of it just as a game when you do something to make you look like an ahole, but then think of it as a war to justify your actions. The funeral was attacked with the express purpose of being aholes, from their own statements. So if you want to back them up, don't kid yourself, you're an ahole by association. I don't see why it would be so hard for someone to restrain themselves from disrupting the funeral of an RL person for 1hour out of 1day. It takes a certain type to not be able to stay away from a funeral. Rationalize it all you want, fact remains that they had the choice to walk by this girl's grave, join the service, or spit on her grave. They chose to knowingly spit, personally I would've walked by.
I know someone might say it is a game and a war, but in a game-war there are lines you don't cross without branding yourself as dishonorable. Spawn camping, griefing, speed hacks, etc etc and we all know what those lines are so don't act like it's a new concept to have honor in online PvP. If you want to align yourself with the honorless, that is your prerogative. If you're having trouble with what honor is or isn't, look it up.
On a sidenote, I don't usually wish death on people, but I make the exception for those who devalue the lives of others. I don't know if anyone here, or those involved in the event, are or were making light of the girl's death....but if they are or were...I hope they stop breathing...I hope very hard.
they stated something along the lines of "yeah, we're a holes, hate us, we don't care, we did it just to be a holes."
they did NOT do it for honor points
they did NOT do it because they were alliance ganking horde enemies
they did NOT do it for pretty much any reason people defending them in this thread (including the mmorpg rep) have stated.
they PLAINLY stated that the only reason they did it was to grief and be jerks.
so, as long as we're talking about that one incident... no, they didn't do it for any ingame reason that you people have said... they did it ONLY because well... picture "make love not warcraft" from south park... now, that's the people that did it...
"he must've played every hour of every day since the servers have been up."
"he must have no life"
"how do you kill that which has no life..."
you do it the jay & silent bob way, of course... you go knock on the door and beat the dog poo out of them.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
The "rep" did not give a reason for them doing anything. He merely stated that it makes them villains, which - by thier own admission of just wanting to cause trouble - is what they were going for.
vil?lain? /?v?l
?n/ [vil-uh
n]
Agent_X7 AKA J Star
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Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of MMORPG.com or its management.
this kind of stuff makes me feel all warm and fuzzy
people that mix real world seriousness with computer generated fantasy worlds inside videogames need to get a clue
Yes, because it's honorable to seek physical retribution for something that happened in a game.
Do you seriously believe that garbage? If you honestly believe what you are posting, you are the definition of a terrorist. I'll take the game gankers over the idea of causing physical harm to folks for something intangible any day.
Maybe I misread the title... but I thought this was supposed to be about "Open PvP"? Perhaps you guys have redefined the term "open" to mean "faction-based". Last I heard and experienced WoW does not HAVE an open PvP server... because they will never let my dwarf kill and elf.
That said, this debate really was not about Open PvP, but if it HAD been, then the outcome would have been... "Open PvP helps regulate its player-base." You see, in an event like the one you mentioned I bet it was not just the Horde who were upset, I gather several Alliance clans thought poorly of the guild as well. But, what can the alliance do about it? Nothing... because the PvP is not open. You can be standing right next to a complete idiot who just needs to shut up and have NO ability to stop him... because its not open PvP.
If you want to debate this issue, I would suggest looking at some games with TRULY open PvP, or perhaps looking at areas where the lack of such a system is noticeable.
I am a little disappointed with MMORPG, of all the issues out there, this is the best you could come up with?
Bring it up a notch guys, debates should be about something meaningful that WE the PLAYERS are concerned or passionate about. With that said, I will feed your troll -
1. Open PvP - Your character/avitar (whatever) in a PvP area, can and will be killed anywhere at anytime for any or no reason. Any Questions? Something Unclear?
2. Real-Life - That's the side of the screen where you sit. I know some get confused.
3. Ethics - Basically a system of morals, rules of conduct etc... See Number 1, thats the expected conduct, morals are for Real-life, check where your sitting first so you know.
NEVER should you be emotionally moved in ANYWAY by what happens on the other side of the screen, other then the occational "dang". If you are anymore affected then this, look at where you are sitting, and realize where you are, Real-Life. I assure you, Real-Life is the ULTIMATE Game.
P.S. Dave - Median? Well.. you'll figure it out.
Flame On!!!
"I may disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
Voltaire [Fran
I feel for the people who put this memorial service together, it was a good thing. That said, holding it in a PvP zone was bad planning, and they should have expected the outcome. PvP is just that, many play by honor, many play purely to grief - we don't have "grief free PvP". I learned to love PvP games with SB, which I played since it's beginning. I miss the excitement of never knowing if you'd be ganked at any given moment. There were some guilds that held events like weddings, plays etc - they did it in the safety of their guild city or in a safe hold. Common sense tells you that if you are in the middle of a PvP area, you will be attacked. That is the law of the land. A bunch of knights hold a service and a bunch of theives and bandits attack - what's the suprise. Kudos for the thought behind the service, but WOW, what a bad idea to hold it where they did.
Now, to topic, I thought this was a debate about open PvP. I would love to see an article/debate on this issue.
Ethics? On a PvP server? Whatever. The whole point of open PvP is to attack when the odds are in your favor. Holding a funeral in a vulnerable location is a nice notion, but extremely ignorant. There are plenty of safe places to do such a thing, even on the pvp servers. You might as well try having a tea party in the center of wsg. Just not too smart.
If you want serious time, that's cool, do it where you cant get messed with, otherwise you WILL get messed with.
And this wasnt a debate. Guys, take some english classes before writing another one of these articles. In a debate, the two of you should be taking OPPOSITE sides, not agreeing with each other. You're just going to end up debating your readers when you do that. That's about as silly as holding a serious memorial service in a pvp zone.
http://erickveil.com/
personally, i enjoyed the PVP that existed back in the early dread-lord days of UO.
for the first week i played, i thought there was some uber npc that would hang just outside the brit guard range and whose only goal in life was to gank me. finally, i went a different direction to leave brit. a few days later, i realized it was a "red", a pk, not an npc. by 'realized', i mean i finally found out what that was/meant.
joined a guild, which was part of a group of guilds. we grew, a lot. months pass. one day i was out on my bard/tamer alt, taming bears and singing songs. this new pk'er, baron sengir, came and ganked me.
my mission now was to kill him, just cuz. FINALLY someone found him and i went there, ganked him, and had to call others to help me loot. he had all sorts of invul armor, weapons of vanquishing, etc that he was carrying to his house i suppose.
more months pass, eq is rumored to be out soon (came out probably about six months later), anywho, i declare war on all of baja. a lot of guilds accept the war. now, we have to gather together in groups in order for ONE of us to go to the bank. of course, they drop off whatever and we end up just killing and being killed for quite some time.
OPEN pvp... i.e. if you're at war with someone or you leave "protected city areas'... it can be a LOT of fun. it's not for loners, or the people that like to play MMOs like they're single player games. but if you have fun grouping with folks, it's a million times better than farming an instance over and over, farming a raid boss over and over, or just doing ANYTHING repeatedly for months on end.
a sidenote - honor.
not the caca system in wow, but actual honor.
the samurai have that long extensive code, which also includes suicide before dishonor, essentially. it's interesting to note that this code did not come into being until after decades (if not a century or two) of peace in the land because of the samurai and their masters. during time of peace, they came up with all this honor code 'stuff'.
strangely enough, i equate that to any and all games you can play online. YOU, yourself, are in no immediate danger, ever. there is no reason to not be honorable, to some extent. in uo, we had areas that we "claimed" and we would kill everyone that came into our area. normally we wouldn't loot them, we'd let them get their stuff and leave. if they chose to stay (normally to tell us that it WASN'T our area) or talk smack, we'd kill them and take their stuff in order to reaffirm that they were incorrect in their thinking--an attempt to get their minds right.
there is no mmorpg out there where you HAVE to kill nonstop and you would not enjoy the game or be able to live with yourself if you weren't playing every waking minute, or you can't just NOT be an a hole for one day. if that is you, then you're just a sad pathetic little nothing. don't care if you live in mommy's basement, if you're the ceo of enron, if you're some teen-age punk in a rebellious stage... doesn't matter... if that does describe you and you have so little control over yourself and you're so demanding of YOUR rights... you have serious issues and a few months of being bubba's wife in jail will more than make your mind right.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
We need a lot more physical violence as a reaction to free speech? The reason that scene was funny is because it was such a ridiculous over-reaction to something so petty. Now, I think most people would agree that what happened was in bad taste, but the bottom line is that an online warthog slaughter simulator isn't a healthy place to conduct mourning, nor should it come with any expectations of immunity for any reason.
free speech is not a 'you can't touch me' card in order to be a jerk. free speech only exists because valiant men gave their lives in defense of their country. normal every day joes became extraordinary heroes when the test of courage and bravery faced them and they would lay their lives on the line in hopes of a better life for the future generation.
do not ever think to use 'free speech' to condone bigotry, hate, or anything that could remotely be considered evil. i know some do. but there's a lot of idiots in the world, and even more cattle. free speech is so that you can say, "hey, the governor is doing us wrong, here's why, here's the facts." and not have to worry about the gestapo killing you and your family.
but, i do hope that the nazis take over your town and show you what protecting their free speech wins you. i'll give you a hint.... germany in the 1940s....
but, the ironic part of it all... lots of 'big bad menz' online would never be so bold if they didn't have the anonymity of the internet to hide themselves like little children. just sit and think about all the things that WOULDN'T go on, online, in games, if people knew where you lived.
why is that? oh yeah, because you might irk a big dude that comes to your house and stomps a mudhole in your face. then you could call the cops and say "yes, i exercised my free speech and cussed him out online for half a day and was a total jerk to everyone i saw because I CAN." and they'll say, "take your sign, move along".
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
How much more real life can you get than Serenity Now playing terrorists. It's very disturbing to me that anyone would even consider it, given our real world situation. But then, we all know that people aren't as honorable and decent as they like to pretend they are, or even think they are.
And, it's why I won't play an open PvP game. I can't handle the frustration of being around that many jerks.
I've already posted so I apologise but I feel that I should post again in response to the people that are having some trouble relating events on a PvP server with real world morality.
The reason that allows us to make an ethical analysis of these actions is twofold. Firstly, based on the fact that the 'gankers' knew that it was a funeral. Secondly, that the events were not independant from the real world and were not just concerned with actions/events in the game.
I can understand your desire or intuition to say that ethics have no place in a pvp server of a game. This has some truth to it I grant you. However, the difference with this case and any normal day to day goings on in the server is that the players ceased to be just x number of players on a pvp server going about a fantasy 'life' and as someone claimed they announced that fact. It wasnt x number of avatars standing together in a virtual world, it was x number of people sitting behind monitors at their computers mourning the death of a friend/guildie in the real world.
(Still waiting for some further proof of the announcement though as it is a major condition in the moral judgement).
The way the funeral was conducted (in an open pvp zone) may be questioned in terms of prudence that is true, but that prudence, or lack of, does not effect the ethical value of the actions of the people that ganked them, it just allowed something that need not have happened to have the possibility of being.
So if, as I said in the last post, we could be 100% without a doubt that the actions were intended to maliciously disrupt a memorial for the death of someone in the real world, then I really think you would be hard pushed to argue the actions as not being immoral.
It ceased to be just x number of pixels and code in a pvp server of a game but real people with real feelings. That is the difference. The lack of prudence of those actions on behalf of the mourners does not grant the 'gankers' ethical immunity if they were aware of the reason the people were gathered.
Moreover, I'm fairly confident that if the people that did this were honest with us and honest with themselves that they would regret doing it. I'm sure in the dark hours of the night when their consciences' awaken that it will have cost them some sleep. Only someone without a conscience, if that is even possible, could claim that they have not at any time doubted the morality of their actions in that situation.
We need a lot more physical violence as a reaction to free speech? The reason that scene was funny is because it was such a ridiculous over-reaction to something so petty. Now, I think most people would agree that what happened was in bad taste, but the bottom line is that an online warthog slaughter simulator isn't a healthy place to conduct mourning, nor should it come with any expectations of immunity for any reason.
free speech is not a 'you can't touch me' card in order to be a jerk. free speech only exists because valiant men gave their lives in defense of their country. normal every day joes became extraordinary heroes when the test of courage and bravery faced them and they would lay their lives on the line in hopes of a better life for the future generation.
do not ever think to use 'free speech' to condone bigotry, hate, or anything that could remotely be considered evil. i know some do. but there's a lot of idiots in the world, and even more cattle. free speech is so that you can say, "hey, the governor is doing us wrong, here's why, here's the facts." and not have to worry about the gestapo killing you and your family.
but, i do hope that the nazis take over your town and show you what protecting their free speech wins you. i'll give you a hint.... germany in the 1940s....
but, the ironic part of it all... lots of 'big bad menz' online would never be so bold if they didn't have the anonymity of the internet to hide themselves like little children. just sit and think about all the things that WOULDN'T go on, online, in games, if people knew where you lived.
why is that? oh yeah, because you might irk a big dude that comes to your house and stomps a mudhole in your face. then you could call the cops and say "yes, i exercised my free speech and cussed him out online for half a day and was a total jerk to everyone i saw because I CAN." and they'll say, "take your sign, move along".
First of all, you automatically lose any credibility for relating anything that happens in an MMO to the horrors of Nazi fascism in WW2. Second of all, you don't have to condone bigotry and hateful speech to believe that people have the right to voice their opinion, regardless of whether or not you feel that opinion is barbaric, idiotic or what have you. What do you propose as an alternative? Oh yes, I forgot. Releasing everyone's addresses so you can go stomp the life out of Goku_warrior_86 because he called you a "n008". Sweet ass plan broseph, I don't see any problems with it. Pause. Notttttt.
Obviously the ones so vociferously and vehemently defending the actions of those who only want to cause grife,strife and pain on others have no cares for others.
This event was a memorial and was most definately The people behind the screens with real emotions.
What do you call people who go out of there way to make others lives miserable?
In the games their griefers and gankers. In real life their called bullies.
I was playing on a PvP server when that garbage went down. You can keep your Open-PvP mentality.
After being in the service and serving in a number of operations yes you focus in the midst of sometimes overwhelming stupidity in stressful situations. People play games to escape and enjoy themselves. Over time people can and sometimes do make friends. When a good friend passes away for me in real life i honor them to the best of their wishes(if known).
To put it another way if you came to a memorial service of one of my friends that has passed and attempted anything even remotely close to that plain and simple someones going to the hospital.
It was a little unclear to me at a first glance as you seemed to imply by an allusion that I was defending those people so...
...I'll take the use of 'vociferously' there as either a coincidence or the fact that you agree with my post and not insult you by asking if you read it.
Humans are intrinsically evil and expecting in-game behaviour to be any different is symptomatic of an arrogantly dissassociated attitude that I find offensive. Anyone living in such a fluffy Disney Land that can be offended by this should go out and see how f*d up the real world is and put their energies in to fighting a worthwhile fight.
http://www.globalissues.org/
First off I want to say Dan Fortier's comments were cold, inconsiderate and rather callous. It is beyond absurd to compare a pvp server to "real world militants". It's a game, the pvp aspect is a game, this person's death was real and Dan's comments, to me, were trivializing her funeral.
I attended an ingame funeral in EQ1 for the death of a long term guild leader, guildmate and friend. So I know full well that at that time it wasn't about the game, it was people who knew her getting to together to mourn, share stores and comfort each other.
If it had been a lone person coming in and disrupting the funeral, it could be blown off as one bad apple as the saying goes. The fact that a guild participated, knowingly, makes it .. well, to say "disrespectful" is putting it mildly. What I really want to say would be bleeped out on this forum.
What Serenity Now did was uncalled for, immature, poorly-thought out and a multitude of other things. I can only hope that they got ganked/griefed daily for months, to hammer home what they did was Wrong. I am not even sure who is worse, the inconsiderate people who did this or people like Dan Fortier who rationalize it by saying "well it's a pvp server". I get disgusted with people who act like a**holes and then try to hide under the "I was roleplaying" or "it's a pvp server and they are The Enemy" mentality.
And BTW if someone is going to have an ingame event on an open PvP server they need to have some sort of defense against griefers and gankers. I remember in my old SWG server when we had an even, wether guild or server-wide, we had a whole team or two of people just defending it making sure nobody was going to start fighting (we always held em in pvpmode). You play a game for the alternate lifestyle of the game, therefore you must live with the game (ie gankers and griefers) instead of the game living with you (ie players leaving you alone).
Currently Playing: Tabula Rasa
Gaming History: EQ, EQ2, SWG, EVE, Anarchy Online, CoX, GW, SRO, Rakion, Ryzom, WoW, Rappelz, Shadowbane, 9Dragons, DAoC, Dungeon Runners, DnD Online, Space Cowboy, LotRO, Vanguard, Fury, Hellgate
Wanting to Play: WAR, TCoS, Darkfall, Aion